Pistorius - is this man sane

[Maeght]

If I had a gun, I would not be as fearful as if I did not have one.

I do not believe him. A gun gives you the edge.

How would you know an intruder didn't have a gun? How would you know there wasn't more than one intruder? He was on his stumps and thought he was protecting his girlfriend in the bedroom behind him - if his account is correct.

The argument about murder comes down to intent it seems and clearly can be debated - as seen by the different decisions reached by different courts. It has to be shown that he intended to kill whoever was behind the door for it to be murder. All along I have recognised that he was guilty of firing without knowing who was behind the door so guilty of something - but it is terms like 'evil murderer' which need questioning. Who knows what we would do in a similar position where we were scared, vulnerable (on his stumps) and panicking?

[BeRational]

How would you know an intruder didn't have a gun? How would you know there wasn't more than one intruder? He was on his stumps and thought he was protecting his girlfriend in the bedroom behind him - if his account is correct.

The argument about murder comes down to intent it seems and clearly can be debated - as seen by the different decisions reached by different courts. It has to be shown that he intended to kill whoever was behind the door for it to be murder. All along I have recognised that he was guilty of firing without knowing who was behind the door so guilty of something - but it is terms like 'evil murderer' which need questioning. Who knows what we would do in a similar position where we were scared, vulnerable (on his stumps) and panicking?

We don't, but we don't care. When he walks through the door you shoot.

You have surprise and you are in a hidden position, he will be in the doorway.

Easy.

[Maeght]

We don't, but we don't care. When he walks through the door you shoot.

You have surprise and you are in a hidden position, he will be in the doorway.

Easy.

Yeah, easy.

[Maeght]

Of course I have read his account and don't believe the evil turd for one second.

Based on what evidence Floo?

Don't forget he has used a gun in anger before that tragic incident!

There were two alleged incidents. One an accidental discharge in a restaurant and the other firing out of a sun roof. Not quite the same as intentional firing at someone with intent.

I just don't understand why people make excuses for him.

Its not excuses, its trying to properly understand what happened based on the evidence and avoiding labels and judgements based on opinion.

[floo]

My gut feeling tells me Pistorius is as guilty as hell, I certainly didn't believe his play acting during his trial, it didn't ring true.

[Maeght]

So no evidence?

[Brownie]

Floo, I mentioned the rent-a-mob people earlier, who decide people are guilty of something heinous, demonstrate outside courts and ban on the prison vans.  The would use words like, "Evil turd", and talk about gut reactions.  I wouldn't have thought someone of your background would be like them.

Thank goodness our law protects the innocent and the guilty from gut reactions.

Let's leave Pistorius to the law of his land and hope they get it right.

[floo]

I hope there is an appeal if that murderer, which he is, doesn't get a very long sentence.

[Brownie]

You don't even consider or read anything anyone says.  This is a discussion forum.

[Maeght]

I hope there is an appeal if that murderer, which he is, doesn't get a very long sentence.

The legal process should follow its course and a decision made based on the evidence.

[floo]

You don't even consider or read anything anyone says.  This is a discussion forum.

I have read it,  but I don't agree with the excuses, which are being made for that murderer's behaviour. He is as guilty as hell, imo, and fortunately the court now sees it that way.

I wonder if some would be quite so forgiving if he wasn't disabled? Disability is NO excuse for murder!

[jeremyp]

The argument about murder comes down to intent it seems and clearly can be debated

I don't think he's denying that he shot through that door with intent. The fact that he didn't know who he was firing at does not absolve him of their murder.

[Maeght]

I don't think he's denying that he shot through that door with intent. The fact that he didn't know who he was firing at does not absolve him of their murder.

I think he must be, since he is denying murder but accepting culpable homicide. I've never seen him say he fired intending to kill whoever was behind the door.

[floo]

I don't think he's denying that he shot through that door with intent. The fact that he didn't know who he was firing at does not absolve him of their murder.

You are right, but I find it very hard to believe he didn't realise it was Reeva in the bathroom. It was much more likely they had a row and he shot her in a fit of temper.

[Maeght]

I have read it,  but I don't agree with the excuses, which are being made for that murderer's behaviour. He is as guilty as hell, imo, and fortunately the court now sees it that way.

I wonder if some would be quite so forgiving if he wasn't disabled? Disability is NO excuse for murder!

A discussion is a bit more than just stating one position regardless. You haven't addressed any points made to you (which you dismiss as excuses) but just say you don't believe them, based on a gut feeling.

[Owlswing]

He said he panicked.  Hindsight is all very well, he should have done differently and knows that. 

I wondered what I would do, or how I would feel, if there was an intruder in my house, possibly behind a door.  Of course we don't have firearms here, or most of us don't.  I honestly don't know what I'd do, probably freeze with fear but - if there was some sort of weapon handy and I knew how to use it.....who knows?  It is such a different culture over in South Africa.
Murder implies intent to kill, not just to maim, and we don't know if he intended to kill anyone on that day.

There's more baying for blood about Pistorius than there was about OJ Simpson all those years ago, and in his case there was evidence of him fleeing in his car (and he wasn't found guilty).  I wonder why, was OJ more popular?  I thought Pistorius was a national hero in SA but he seems to be universally hated because of this.

It reminds me of those cases on the TV news, when people are suspected of a murder and/or heinous violent crime, and rent a mob appear out of nowhere to bang on the prison van, demonstrate and shout.  I've never understood why they do that when the person is going to be tried in a court of law.  We should leave it to the law, it may not always get it right but it does a lot of the time.

Hopefully this case will be fair and just, and seen to be so, to the victim's family and to Oscar Pistorius.

Sometimes, Bronie, your being "Devil's Advocate" all tihe time can be really irritating!

[BeRational]

A discussion is a bit more than just stating one position regardless. You haven't addressed any points made to you (which you dismiss as excuses) but just say you don't believe them, based on a gut feeling.

He did not act reasonably or proportionately.

So he should be accused of murder.

[floo]

A discussion is a bit more than just stating one position regardless. You haven't addressed any points made to you (which you dismiss as excuses) but just say you don't believe them, based on a gut feeling.

I think the so called points made are excuses for his behaviour, and have no relevance, imo.

Anyway there is not much else to say on this topic, until we hear the actual sentence the court imposes on him.

[Maeght]

He did not act reasonably or proportionately.

So he should be accused of murder.

The court should decide if its murder or not based on the evidence.

[Maeght]

I think the so called points made are excuses for his behaviour, and have no relevance, imo.

Yes, obviously, but just dismissing them doesn't make a discussion.

Anyway there is not much else to say on this topic, until we hear the actual sentence the court imposes on him.

If you don't want to comment any more, that's fine. Not really up to you to call an end to the discussion though.

[Owlswing]

The court should decide if its murder or not based on the evidence.

It has already been decided that it was murder - it is that the sentence applied  was insufficient for the crime that is under discussion by the court!!

The matter of the sentence was passed back as the Supreme Court decided that 15 years was insufficient and the minimum to be served IN prison even more so!!

[floo]

YAWN!!!!!!!!!! I called an end to it where I am concerned until we hear what sentence is imposed.

[Brownie]

I must admit I hadn't thought about his disability, something he has coped with well for a long time.  The only time I did was when he was feted as the blade runner.

Floo, with you it is all personal and vicious.  That is not unbiased.  Others on here who feel he is guilty of murder don't use the language you use and present reasoned arguments.

Anyway I'm giving up on this.  It's not in our hands and I will accept whatever the outcome is, not that I have any choice but I won't moan about it.  I do like the UK legal system, for all its faults, better than the South African one though, that's now plain to me.

PS:  Just seen your post Owlswing, I didn't realise I was devil's advocate all the time, well you never see yourself as others do  .  I'm surprised it irritates you, you can ignore me.  Funnily enough I do know someone who is always devil's advocate and it irritates me sometimes but he's the sort of person who shouts others down, talks over them, which is wearing (has lots of good points too).  I hope I'm not like that.

[Maeght]

YAWN!!!!!!!!!! I called an end to it where I am concerned until we hear what sentence is imposed.

Not what you said. And YAWN!!!!!! is so childish.

[Maeght]

It has already been decided that it was murder - it is that the sentence applied  was insufficient for the crime that is under discussion by the court!!

The matter of the sentence was passed back as the Supreme Court decided that 15 years was insufficient and the minimum to be served IN prison even more so!!

Correct.