Author Topic: An open letter to Nigel Farage  (Read 19606 times)

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: An open letter to Nigel Farage
« Reply #75 on: June 25, 2016, 04:54:33 PM »
From the Indie:

"When a Remain vote was considered likely in May, Nigel Farage suggested he would support a second referendum if his side lost by a narrow margin.

The Ukip leader told the Mirror: “In a 52-48 referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way. If the Remain campaign win two-thirds to one-third that ends it.”

He made no mention of the sentiment on Friday, when he triumphantly hailed “independence day” for Britain."

What a piece of work that man is.
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Hope

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Re: An open letter to Nigel Farage
« Reply #76 on: June 25, 2016, 05:16:57 PM »
It's how I feel. I see failure everywhere here: an EU that failed to engage and to clean up its act; a prime minister who took a punt for short term political expediency because he was afraid that UKIP would take tory votes at the last election; an ex London mayor buffoon angling for the top job, fuelled by an ancient posh boy enmity from his Bullingdon club days; a Labour leader disengaged and hidebound by his Dave Spartism; an electorate too stupid and gulled by the right wing press to realise that it was a turkey voting for Christmas. It's a perfect storm.

You know the saddest stat for me? It's not the collapsing pound or the crashing stock market, it's that 82% of 18-25 year-olds - the very people this catastrophe will hurt the most - voted remain. It's a fucking tragedy.
Whilst I agree wholeheartedly with your second paragraph, though I'm sad that as many as 18% fell for the lies of the Leave Campaign (aka the Self-Destruct campaign), I would have to disagree with much of your firdst paragraph. 

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an EU that failed to engage and to clean up its act
Agreed.

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a prime minister who took a punt for short term political expediency because he was afraid that UKIP would take tory votes at the last election
Disagree. Here we had a prime minister who felt that such a constitutional issue needed what we have been promised (and denied) twice before - a referendum on our membership of an organisation that is very different to that which some of us voted on joining back in the mid-70s.  What he and other Remainers didn't have was the ability to provide factual responses to the lies that came from the other side; the status quo is always much harder to argue for.

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an ex London mayor buffoon angling for the top job ...
Partially agree: Boris is probably more intelligent than most of us here and may or may not have chosen the Leave campaign in order to angle for the top job.  I have to say that I haven't seen or heard anything from him to suggest that he is overly keen on that outcome.

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a Labour leader disengaged and hidebound by his Dave Spartism
JC has been a long-term Eurosceptic; I would have had more trust in what he said if he'd stuck to his long-term beliefs - even though they opposed mine.  I susect that many Labour MPs had failed to listen to their own constituents resulting in their being so out of touch.  At least the Tory split was more transparent.

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an electorate too stupid and gulled by the right wing press to realise that it was a turkey voting for Christmas
Again, partial agreement.  I'm not sure that it was only the right-wing press - or even only the press.  I had made my mind up long before the referendum (or even its possibility) was announced: unfortunately, one needed to have an incredible knowlwedge of the EU and all things EU to be able to differentiate  between the different claims most of which started out life with a degree of truth - only to be so spun either way to be made very difficult.
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Jack Knave

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Re: An open letter to Nigel Farage
« Reply #77 on: June 25, 2016, 08:26:40 PM »
Hi Trent,

It's how I feel. I see failure everywhere here: an EU that failed to engage and to clean up its act; a prime minister who took a punt for short term political expediency because he was afraid that UKIP would take tory votes at the last election; an ex London mayor buffoon angling for the top job, fuelled by an ancient posh boy enmity from his Bullingdon club days; a Labour leader disengaged and hidebound by his Dave Spartism; an electorate too stupid and gulled by the right wing press to realise that it was a turkey voting for Christmas. It's a perfect storm.

You know the saddest stat for me? It's not the collapsing pound or the crashing stock market, it's that 82% of 18-25 year-olds - the very people this catastrophe will hurt the most - voted remain. It's a fucking tragedy.
All this and yet not a point against Farage so why the abuse at him? What has he done wrong?

Something must be bugging you because your OP lacks your usual elegant rhetoric.

ippy

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Re: An open letter to Nigel Farage
« Reply #78 on: June 26, 2016, 09:36:53 AM »
From the Indie:

"When a Remain vote was considered likely in May, Nigel Farage suggested he would support a second referendum if his side lost by a narrow margin.

The Ukip leader told the Mirror: “In a 52-48 referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way. If the Remain campaign win two-thirds to one-third that ends it.”

He made no mention of the sentiment on Friday, when he triumphantly hailed “independence day” for Britain."

What a piece of work that man is.

I can understand your dislike of Nigel, he isn't one of the worlds most personable people, that doesn't necessarily make his dislike of us here in the U K being a part of the Euro Zone, one of the used to be 28, wrong.

Your posts are very well expressed and leave no doubts about your line of thought about Nigel however I think you may have met your match were you to try to debate this in/out of the E U with him.

As for the racist comments he is supposed to have made, I have every reason to be sensitive, in this area because I'm someone that would be classified as white and so is my wife and we have two so called black children; I have heard his words misinterpreted to make him sound as though he is a racist and not heard him convey anything racist in his manner or words he has expressed either in the written or spoken word.

Bearing in mind we all get tired and frustrated at times including politicians and sometimes doesn't get it quite right right, surprisingly he's like the rest of us in that way.

By the way, as if you haven't guessed, I'm delighted at the leave result and I now look forward to making our own non EU decisions, like making our politicians become more representative of the people that vote for them, IMO with some form of PR; this need was underlined for me when listening to the Brexit preamble from all quarters.   

ippy



   

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: An open letter to Nigel Farage
« Reply #79 on: June 26, 2016, 10:08:17 AM »
I can understand your dislike of Nigel, he isn't one of the worlds most personable people, that doesn't necessarily make his dislike of us here in the U K being a part of the Euro Zone, one of the used to be 28, wrong.

Your posts are very well expressed and leave no doubts about your line of thought about Nigel however I think you may have met your match were you to try to debate this in/out of the E U with him.

As for the racist comments he is supposed to have made, I have every reason to be sensitive, in this area because I'm someone that would be classified as white and so is my wife and we have two so called black children; I have heard his words misinterpreted to make him sound as though he is a racist and not heard him convey anything racist in his manner or words he has expressed either in the written or spoken word.

Bearing in mind we all get tired and frustrated at times including politicians and sometimes doesn't get it quite right right, surprisingly he's like the rest of us in that way.

By the way, as if you haven't guessed, I'm delighted at the leave result and I now look forward to making our own non EU decisions, like making our politicians become more representative of the people that vote for them, IMO with some form of PR; this need was underlined for me when listening to the Brexit preamble from all quarters.   

ippy



   
How do you feel about the economic impact....of which the leave campaign suggested wasn't a problem?

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Brownie

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Re: An open letter to Nigel Farage
« Reply #81 on: June 26, 2016, 01:00:22 PM »
That really is quite funny.
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Re: An open letter to Nigel Farage
« Reply #82 on: June 26, 2016, 02:48:12 PM »
How many other organisations allow as important a constitutional issue as this to be decided on the 50%+1 principle?  None that I know of; all the charities and groups I belong to require at least a 2/3rds majority!!
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: An open letter to Nigel Farage
« Reply #83 on: June 26, 2016, 02:51:16 PM »
Vey interesting piece from the Guardian comments section today:

"If Boris Johnson looked downbeat yesterday, that is because he realises that he has lost.

Perhaps many Brexiters do not realise it yet, but they have actually lost, and it is all down to one man: David Cameron.

With one fell swoop yesterday at 9:15 am, Cameron effectively annulled the referendum result, and simultaneously destroyed the political careers of Boris Johnson, Michael Gove and leading Brexiters who cost him so much anguish, not to mention his premiership.

How?

Throughout the campaign, Cameron had repeatedly said that a vote for leave would lead to triggering Article 50 straight away. Whether implicitly or explicitly, the image was clear: he would be giving that notice under Article 50 the morning after a vote to leave. Whether that was scaremongering or not is a bit moot now but, in the midst of the sentimental nautical references of his speech yesterday, he quietly abandoned that position and handed the responsibility over to his successor.

And as the day wore on, the enormity of that step started to sink in: the markets, Sterling, Scotland, the Irish border, the Gibraltar border, the frontier at Calais, the need to continue compliance with all EU regulations for a free market, re-issuing passports, Brits abroad, EU citizens in Britain, the mountain of legistlation to be torn up and rewritten ... the list grew and grew.

The referendum result is not binding. It is advisory. Parliament is not bound to commit itself in that same direction.

The Conservative party election that Cameron triggered will now have one question looming over it: will you, if elected as party leader, trigger the notice under Article 50?

Who will want to have the responsibility of all those ramifications and consequences on his/her head and shoulders?

Boris Johnson knew this yesterday, when he emerged subdued from his home and was even more subdued at the press conference. He has been out-maneouvered and check-mated.

If he runs for leadership of the party, and then fails to follow through on triggering Article 50, then he is finished. If he does not run and effectively abandons the field, then he is finished. If he runs, wins and pulls the UK out of the EU, then it will all be over - Scotland will break away, there will be upheaval in Ireland, a recession ... broken trade agreements. Then he is also finished. Boris Johnson knows all of this. When he acts like the dumb blond it is just that: an act.

The Brexit leaders now have a result that they cannot use. For them, leadership of the Tory party has become a poison chalice.

When Boris Johnson said there was no need to trigger Article 50 straight away, what he really meant to say was "never". When Michael Gove went on and on about "informal negotiations" ... why? why not the formal ones straight away? ... he also meant not triggering the formal departure. They both know what a formal demarche would mean: an irreversible step that neither of them is prepared to take.

All that remains is for someone to have the guts to stand up and say that Brexit is unachievable in reality without an enormous amount of pain and destruction, that cannot be borne. And David Cameron has put the onus of making that statement on the heads of the people who led the Brexit campaign.
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: An open letter to Nigel Farage
« Reply #84 on: June 26, 2016, 03:00:08 PM »
Hope,

Quote
Disagree. Here we had a prime minister who felt that such a constitutional issue needed what we have been promised (and denied) twice before - a referendum on our membership of an organisation that is very different to that which some of us voted on joining back in the mid-70s.  What he and other Remainers didn't have was the ability to provide factual responses to the lies that came from the other side; the status quo is always much harder to argue for.

You're kidding right? Cameron had shown no interest in opening that can of worms before he saw UKIP attacking his electoral base in the tory heartland prior to the last election, and he knew all too well that Europe had ripped his party apart for more than a generation whenever the issue came up.

Why on earth otherwise would he had a sudden rush of blood to the head and decided then of all times that it was time to hold an in/out reference?
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: An open letter to Nigel Farage
« Reply #85 on: June 26, 2016, 03:02:24 PM »
JK,

Quote
All this and yet not a point against Farage so why the abuse at him? What has he done wrong?

Something must be bugging you because your OP lacks your usual elegant rhetoric.

Farage is a grotesque and a buffoon. My point though was that it required a perfect storm of incompetence and mendacity from others for his views to prevail rather than - as before - for him just to be laughed at.   
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: An open letter to Nigel Farage
« Reply #86 on: June 26, 2016, 03:18:07 PM »
ipster,

Quote
I can understand your dislike of Nigel, he isn't one of the worlds most personable people, that doesn't necessarily make his dislike of us here in the U K being a part of the Euro Zone, one of the used to be 28, wrong.

Your posts are very well expressed and leave no doubts about your line of thought about Nigel however I think you may have met your match were you to try to debate this in/out of the E U with him.

As for the racist comments he is supposed to have made, I have every reason to be sensitive, in this area because I'm someone that would be classified as white and so is my wife and we have two so called black children; I have heard his words misinterpreted to make him sound as though he is a racist and not heard him convey anything racist in his manner or words he has expressed either in the written or spoken word.

Bearing in mind we all get tired and frustrated at times including politicians and sometimes doesn't get it quite right right, surprisingly he's like the rest of us in that way.

By the way, as if you haven't guessed, I'm delighted at the leave result and I now look forward to making our own non EU decisions, like making our politicians become more representative of the people that vote for them, IMO with some form of PR; this need was underlined for me when listening to the Brexit preamble from all quarters.

Farage's "well, would you like a family of Romanians living next door to you?" style racism is well-documented, for all his apparently emollient, "if we need more doctors from the Indian sub-continent, we should welcome them" counter-position at other times. I don't though see him as the problem all on his own - for a virus to succeed lots of other factors need to be in place and it's the perfect storm of those factors I was more recently talking about.

As for leaving, well I disagree - tell it to the pupils at may daughter's speech day yesterday at her very European-minded, languages orientated school where she's made so many friends from France, Germany, Italy, Spain etc. The sense of anger and loss of opportunity was palpable, as Johnson, Gove etc have taken a wrecking ball to their aspirations.

Still - maybe it'll never happen (see the Guardian piece I posted), or maybe it'll cause enough other member sates to leave (or just to threaten to) that they'll have to re-make the institutions along more democratic lines. I certainly hope so - the emergence of a tooled up Russia, territorially ambitious China, the situation in the Middle East etc means operating as a stand alone sovereign country is a very vulnerable place to be, and the loss of diplomatic influence we had as part of a larger trading bloc will hurt all western democracies I think. 

There's a lot more to come I think before this story is done.         
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Bubbles

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Re: An open letter to Nigel Farage
« Reply #87 on: June 26, 2016, 03:39:50 PM »
What concerns me is that what with the undemocratic methods suggested by some of the remain voters,  and the media whipping up feelings about Scotland blocking an exit and our two main political parties being disorganised and the primeminister resigning, that it might be ripe for someone like Nigel Farage or other radical person to get voted in.
( Nigel Farage might not be the worst )
What I don't want to see is the leave supporters being radicalised by the way the remain supporters are carrying on, plus Scotland ( or at least spurred on by the media) and voting for someone completely unsuitable.

It could happen if people feel what happens after the vote is undemocratic or their voice has been suppressed.

They might latch onto someone they feel will "put it right".

Hitler got in by riding in on a wave of discontent.

I am seeing some remain supporters suggesting things I think may instigate that.

Emotions seem so high ATM.

It's not good.

( it might sound extreme for British people, but the atmosphere around this whole thing is explosive)
« Last Edit: June 26, 2016, 03:43:02 PM by Rose »

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: An open letter to Nigel Farage
« Reply #88 on: June 26, 2016, 04:18:47 PM »
Vey interesting piece from the Guardian comments section today:

"If Boris Johnson looked downbeat yesterday, that is because he realises that he has lost.

The Brexit leaders now have a result that they cannot use. For them, leadership of the Tory party has become a poison chalice.

When Boris Johnson said there was no need to trigger Article 50 straight away, what he really meant to say was "never". When Michael Gove went on and on about "informal negotiations" ... why? why not the formal ones straight away? ... he also meant not triggering the formal departure. They both know what a formal demarche would mean: an irreversible step that neither of them is prepared to take.

All that remains is for someone to have the guts to stand up and say that Brexit is unachievable in reality without an enormous amount of pain and destruction, that cannot be borne. And David Cameron has put the onus of making that statement on the heads of the people who led the Brexit campaign.
"
What with this, the EU having no way of forcing the PM to invoke Article 50, and Sturgeon with a possible veto..........

It looks like a Brexican standoff.

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Re: An open letter to Nigel Farage
« Reply #89 on: June 26, 2016, 04:54:20 PM »
What concerns me is that what with the undemocratic methods suggested by some of the remain voters, ...
You mean like their unwillingness to press the Article 50 button, or to start the disengagement process?  Are the remainers' tactics any more undemocratic than the now acknowledged lies that the 'Vote Leave' used to make their case?
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: An open letter to Nigel Farage
« Reply #90 on: June 26, 2016, 09:23:38 PM »
Hope,

Quote
You mean like their unwillingness to press the Article 50 button, or to start the disengagement process?  Are the remainers' tactics any more undemocratic than the now acknowledged lies that the 'Vote Leave' used to make their case?

No. The petition is badly worded (and it turns out was done by a leaver to boot) but it seems to me that to a significant extent the Brexit vote was determined by the lies that the leavers swallowed. My view (which there's no chance whatever of ever happening) is that there should be a re-run, only with all factual claims checked and commented on by an independent office of factual accuracy.

This thing is far too important to be decided on the claims of one politician at least with the moral compass of a polecat.   
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Harrowby Hall

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Re: An open letter to Nigel Farage
« Reply #91 on: June 27, 2016, 08:29:47 AM »
Michael Heseltine was on tv this morning. He said that the withdrawal negotiations should be done by those who wanted to withdraw in the first place. Hence, the negotiators for exit should be Messrs Johnson, Gove and Farage. When their negotiations are complete, their proposals should be put to the nation in a second referendum.
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Re: An open letter to Nigel Farage
« Reply #92 on: June 27, 2016, 08:44:16 AM »
Michael Heseltine was on tv this morning. He said that the withdrawal negotiations should be done by those who wanted to withdraw in the first place. Hence, the negotiators for exit should be Messrs Johnson, Gove and Farage. When their negotiations are complete, their proposals should be put to the nation in a second referendum.

I wish!

Nearly Sane

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Re: An open letter to Nigel Farage
« Reply #93 on: June 27, 2016, 08:50:10 AM »
Michael Heseltine was on tv this morning. He said that the withdrawal negotiations should be done by those who wanted to withdraw in the first place. Hence, the negotiators for exit should be Messrs Johnson, Gove and Farage. When their negotiations are complete, their proposals should be put to the nation in a second referendum.

I have to admit I find the idea of this second referendum somewhat baffling. Surely you end up with the problem a vote against the result of negotiations is not necessarily a vote to stay? Never mind the actual application of Article 50.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: An open letter to Nigel Farage
« Reply #94 on: June 27, 2016, 09:22:53 AM »
Hi HH,

Quote
Michael Heseltine was on tv this morning. He said that the withdrawal negotiations should be done by those who wanted to withdraw in the first place. Hence, the negotiators for exit should be Messrs Johnson, Gove and Farage. When their negotiations are complete, their proposals should be put to the nation in a second referendum.

I heard him say the same thing on Radio 4. I have some sympathy for that - if you break it, then you fix it I'd say. So far the vote has been about what people don't want - ie, membership of the EU. What though they'll get instead in its place is hanging in the air - if and when Johnson et al finish negotiating and then say, "OK, here's the package of what this actually means in practice" then I suspect that many outers will be horrified, but will have no further opportunity to vote.

Me, I'd have a re-run now with an independent office of fact checking verifying the claims of both sides, and I'd want another one on the practical arrangements once they'd been agreed. 

 
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BeRational

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Re: An open letter to Nigel Farage
« Reply #95 on: June 27, 2016, 09:24:57 AM »
I think he also mentioned that the deal whenever it is sorted, will need the approval of the commons, and the vast majority there (at the moment) favour remain, so they can just reject it?
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: An open letter to Nigel Farage
« Reply #96 on: June 27, 2016, 09:26:28 AM »
Hi NS,

Quote
I have to admit I find the idea of this second referendum somewhat baffling. Surely you end up with the problem a vote against the result of negotiations is not necessarily a vote to stay? Never mind the actual application of Article 50.

Yes you would - the question therefore would have to be something like, "Having negotiated to the best of our ability, this is the only set of practical arrangements on the table. Do you:

A: accept it

B: wish to return to the membership arrangements prior to the June 2016 referendum?"
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Nearly Sane

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Re: An open letter to Nigel Farage
« Reply #97 on: June 27, 2016, 09:37:57 AM »
Hi NS,

Yes you would - the question therefore would have to be something like, "Having negotiated to the best of our ability, this is the only set of practical arrangements on the table. Do you:

A: accept it

B: wish to return to the membership arrangements prior to the June 2016 referendum?"

And for B to apply we would have to have all of the EU nations to agree that it's an option, which might not be entirely legal given Article 50.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: An open letter to Nigel Farage
« Reply #98 on: June 27, 2016, 09:50:23 AM »
NS,

Quote
And for B to apply we would have to have all of the EU nations to agree that it's an option, which might not be entirely legal given Article 50.

Don't know. Optimally you'd want to complete the negotiations and have the vote, and only if it was a "yes" hit the Art 50 button to set Brexit in train without further ado. Presumably the response would be, "but we can't negotiate in the first place without Art 50 being invoked" but given the trauma to all parties I'd have thought some practical solution could be devised.
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Re: An open letter to Nigel Farage
« Reply #99 on: June 27, 2016, 09:57:26 AM »
Hi NS,

Yes you would - the question therefore would have to be something like, "Having negotiated to the best of our ability, this is the only set of practical arrangements on the table. Do you:

A: accept it

B: wish to return to the membership arrangements prior to the June 2016 referendum?"

This would need to be done before Article 50 was activated since it isn't known if the EU would be prepared to negotiate any arrangements prior to Article 50 being activated - without Article 50 they might be more inclined to let us wallow in our self-inflicted mess.

Leaving aside the issue of Scotland for now, I'd have thought the only way to rescind this madness would be via an appropriate democratic processes, such as a General election where one or more of the parties stood on a manifesto of voiding the referendum - I think Michael Heseltine suggested something along those lines - which if they won enough seats would be a democratic mandate to stop Article 50 dead in its tracks.

Of course, given Labour's continued implosion, this would probably requite a split of the Tory party into two, so that the current Tory pro EU element could combine with the other pro EU parties to stop Brexit - if they got enough seats.

Or something like that.