An open letter to Nigel Farage

[Nearly Sane]

Just been watching the News about the rise in racial tensions post referendum. Is anyone else feeling as if this country has become a colder, uglier place all of a sudden now that Farage has got his way?

Way less than to my mind the 70s or the 80s. Do I think some morons behaved criminally, absolutely. But I am with Hope here -i could show a similar rise year on year dependent on a number of factors. It will happen at least 3 times in Glasgow next football season.

Are the things of concern, of course. Do we have enough data, no.

[Bubbles]

Burying your head in the sand is one approach I suppose.

Whatever makes you happy.

Just do not dwell on the reality of the situation.

The reality of the situation is we are ok ATM.

Plus how we go into it, is going to affect the outcome.

Doom and gloomers will find it a self fullfilling prophecy if they don't adopt a more positive attitude.

Most of it is imagination, the pound has gone down before, people have been made redundant before.

We will manage.

Somehow.

Look at it as a potential opportunity.

[Aruntraveller]

The reality of the situation is we are ok ATM.

No the reality of the situation is that we have, at best, a caretaker PM who is not in a position to do anything to stabilise a very volatile situation.

The reality of the situation is that the £ has plunged against the dollar which is going to have very real affects on the prices we pay for many things that we need for every day living.

The reality of the situation is that there is no fucking plan.

The reality of the situation is that whatever trade agreement we eventually reach with Europe will, for it to be anything half way decent, have to include free movement of labour, and when that reality sinks in with a large minority of the population just stop and think about how they will react.

The reality of the situation is that our economy has shrunk to a size smaller than France's.

The reality of the situation is that if we had gone out to try to wreck our economy we could not have done a better job of it.

Our prospects for the future, the Union, the ability to have a place in the world has been wrecked by a people in search of a mythical, magical England that never fucking existed.

THAT'S THE REALITY.

[Bubbles]

Being miserable isn't going to change anything.

So there is no point in being miserable.

Provided our families are ok, it's only money.

At the end  of the day it's people that matter.

Especially our friends & families.

If it had been another world war where our loved ones sons and daughters husbands wives, got called up and risked being killed, that would be a lot worse IMO.

No one is bombing us, we are not having to rescue children trapped in rubble under burning buildings.

No one is imposing national call up.

We are better off than families in WW2.

This should be easier if we all pull together.

Ok so fuel goes up, time to dust off the bike for short journeys.

[Harrowby Hall]

What tablets are you on?

[Aruntraveller]

Provided our families are ok, it's only money.

I have a feeling you haven't quite grasped the concept of money.

What the nation has done collectively is vote to make ourselves poorer.

Do you think that the people at the top will suffer - or do you think it is the very people who were taken in by spurious promises lies about "£350 million on the NHS, and it won't affect our economy, and we'll get rid of migrants," etc. who will be more affected.

Your name has never been more appropriate. Take the glasses off, please.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Rose,

I have a feeling you haven't quite grasped the concept of money.

What the nation has done collectively is vote to make ourselves poorer.

Do you think that the people at the top will suffer - or do you think it is the very people who were taken in by spurious promises lies about "£350 million on the NHS, and it won't affect our economy, and we'll get rid of migrants," etc. who will be more affected.

Your name has never been more appropriate. Take the glasses off, please.

Just to note that it's a common misperception for people to think, "so the markets are tanking. So what - it's got nothing to do with me" when those same people want jobs, have pensions, rely on various benefits etc that are intimately connected to the health of the wider economy.

In other words, it could be that peoples' families are not "ok" at all.

[jeremyp]

But it was only one vote in 17 million. I mean, that's very small. 

You are still a party to the decision.

I find it very interesting that you got what you wanted but you are very reluctant to accept the consequences of your decision.

[jeremyp]

I think rUK and Scotland will be better off with a split, the divisive nature of the SNP does little for either country.

The SNP hasn't caused this. The SNP was firmly in the non divisive i.e. Remain camp. If the UK breaks up, the blame lies firmly with Boris Johnson, Michael Gove, Nigel Farage for giving the SNP a way back when they had lost the Scottish independence debate.

[jeremyp]

Yes, and some of that is people not accepting the results of a democratic vote.

Shut the fuck up about that. I have accepted the result, but I'm not happy about it and I can say I'm not happy about it.

Just stop banging on about how I have to pretend this is OK.

[jeremyp]

Provided our families are ok, it's only money.

At the end  of the day it's people that matter.

Yes, people without jobs that have moved to Paris or Dublin. People who can't afford fuel for their cars and houses because the cost of oil has effectively risen. People who are being told to pack their bags by racists who think this result has given license to their revolting ideals.

You can't feed a family on the drivel that you are spouting.

[Brownie]

I know exactly what Rose means.  It isn't an "I'm alright Jack" (which I have been accused of), or overly-optimistic/Pollyanna attitude but realistic.  We are aware of the implications of the result of the referendum and will do what we can to mitigate the damage that will be more apparent in time, but in the meantime life goes on and we might as well appreciate what we have while we have it.  It doesn't mean we don't care.  I was unbelievably gutted the morning after when I got up and found out the result (my husband had stayed up to watch on TV but didn't tell me the outcome), but I can't go on being so acutely gutted indefinitely.  It doesn't help anyone!

We're not out yet - who knows?  Ultimately, we might not be.

[bluehillside Retd.]

jeremy,

Shut the fuck up about that. I have accepted the result, but I'm not happy about it and I can say I'm not happy about it.

Just stop banging on about how I have to pretend this is OK.

I'm less sanguine about that. Given how narrow the result, I'm not so sure that we don't risk a historically important result arrived at on the basis of enough people buying enough lies (the very lies that the Brexiters are now rowing back from) to make the difference.

It'll never happen, but I'd run it again with an independent office of fact checkers validating or not the claims from each side.

Failing that, I see that Jeremy Hunt has said that the negotiated package should be voted on too. I don't think he's thought it through because he had no answer to what happens if it's a "no", but if they could negotiate under "Art 50 lite" (copyright: bluehillside) they could then make the choice binary: new package vs pre June 2016 referendum position.   

[Bubbles]

Ok I'll repost this.

It sets out how I see it.

Im not pretending it's all ok, it is all ok ATM nothing in my world has changed that I can see.

I'm not laying any guilt trip on you, from my perspective it's the other way round.
You make me feel I ought to be as depressed and miserable as you are, by it all.

My family is relatively healthy, my children haven't been conscripted to fight some war, I'm not having to pull children trapped underneath rubble from bombed out buildings, and my food isn't rationed. Ok so petrol might go up and some in the family might be made redundant. That can happen in the EU.

My life, even if there is some hardship coming, is a lot better than other places in the world.

If I had conditions like families in ww2 or people today living under constant conflict or under Isis rule, I'd be depressed and worried.

As it is, I think I'm extremely lucky.

If I can keep food on the table and my family healthy, that's what really matters.

So that's what I aim to do.

If I have to cut back on things, then I do.

When I was a kid no one whose parents were working class could afford holidays abroad.

We have become used to living like millionaires ( in comparison) if we have to return to that for a while, then so be it.

The problem nowadays is we all expect to do these things, it's normal.

Most of the country chose to return to "the good old days,"which is probably exactly what they are going to get.

In the "good old days" working class people didn't go abroad for their holidays if they were very lucky they got a caravan down in clacton for a week.

They didn't have the latest gadgets because there were no mobile phones, iPads etc.

Today our expectations are raised in what we expect to be able to do.

What might happen when we are trying to sort ourselves out, is we may return to that age where we can't all jet off into the sun and have the lifestyle we think we are entitled to.

IMO we will still have the things that matter, which is caring for our families and we might need to lower our expectations a bit in the lifestyle front, especially if those working have to support those made redundant.

But IMO we' ll chivvy through somehow.

[jeremyp]

jeremy,

I'm less sanguine about that.

Sorry, I didn't mean to give the impression that I am sanguine.

I am pretty angry. If we can find a way out of this mess we need to take it. But I don't think rerunning the referendum until people see sense is going to work.

Failing that, I see that Jeremy Hunt has said that the negotiated package should be voted on too. I don't think he's thought it through because he had no answer to what happens if it's a "no", but if they could negotiate under "Art 50 lite" (copyright: bluehillside) they could then make the choice binary: new package vs pre June 2016 referendum position.

The trouble is we might reject the package offered, in which case we'll be out of the EU with no deal at all because there will be no negotiations before article 50 is triggered and after article 50 is triggered, EU exit is inevitable.

[jeremyp]

I'm not laying any guilt trip on you, from my perspective it's the other way round.
You make me feel I ought to be as depressed and miserable as you are, by it all.

If you're not, you aren't following the news.

[Bubbles]

I'm pragmatic.

That's my approach.

[Aruntraveller]

This is my last words on this thread and indeed this board for awhile:

Rose you are deluded. There is no return to a mythical England of yesteryear. When are you choosing the 50's? the 60's? the 70's. Think about what they were really like for ordinary people and then try getting anyone to actually go back to that. They won't want to. I'm all for pulling together but not to the extent that I wish everyone was poorer, in worse health and lived in poorer housing. You are actually really, really mad if you believe your own post.

Still it would perhaps ensure we wouldn't have the totally unedifying sight and sound of English football fans chanting: "We're all voting out" at French people. Mind you they got their wish in another way last night.

[bluehillside Retd.]

jeremy,

Sorry, I didn't mean to give the impression that I am sanguine.

I am pretty angry. If we can find a way out of this mess we need to take it. But I don't think rerunning the referendum until people see sense is going to work.

Not so much "until they see sense" but rather re-run it with facts that have been independently checked. If then it's still a "no", then so be it. The evident lies and the narrowness of the "win" suggest to me that an historic decision may have been made on false premises, and that worries me a lot. 

The trouble is we might reject the package offered, in which case we'll be out of the EU with no deal at all because there will be no negotiations before article 50 is triggered and after article 50 is triggered, EU exit is inevitable.

The idea is that the EU passes emergency legislation for an "Article 50 light" option. The UK would trigger it, and then serious negotiations would occur. Once completed, the package would be put to a vote: "yes" and we adopt it; "no" and we trigger the "real" Art 50.   

[Bubbles]

This is my last words on this thread and indeed this board for awhile:

Rose you are deluded. There is no return to a mythical England of yesteryear. When are you choosing the 50's? the 60's? the 70's. Think about what they were really like for ordinary people and then try getting anyone to actually go back to that. They won't want to. I'm all for pulling together but not to the extent that I wish everyone was poorer, in worse health and lived in poorer housing. You are actually really, really mad if you believe your own post.

Still it would perhaps ensure we wouldn't have the totally unedifying sight and sound of English football fans chanting: "We're all voting out" at French people. Mind you they got their wish in another way last night.

Trent, I'm not wishing for it at all.
I'm looking at what a shortage of money could lead to. A return to a time most people couldn't have a package holiday because only the wealthy jetted off into the sun.

I think you have misread my post.

[Bubbles]

I can't win.

If I don't deal with realities, I get told I'm in cloud cookoo land or on tablets, when I do I'm accused of wanting to live in some mythical past age.

Neither is true.

I don't want that.

It's what might happen because of a drop in standards of living.

[Brownie]

You have been misunderstood Rose, that's quite clear to me.  I don't want to repeat what I said above but I completely get what you are saying.

I'm seriously hoping that my 36 year old only offspring has calmed down a bit since we saw him on Saturday.  He was so outraged and obsessed, coming up with outlandish and unworkable solutions, I became quite worried;  both his father and I were depressed and gutted at the outcome but there was no comparison.  He is the sort of person who 'gets on a roll', we know that - I'm wondering how he'll be this week.

[jeremyp]

jeremy,

Not so much "until they see sense" but rather re-run it with facts that have been independently checked. If then it's still a "no", then so be it. The evident lies and the narrowness of the "win" suggest to me that an historic decision may have been made on false premises, and that worries me a lot. 

I think the first referendum should have been run on that basis, but it's too late now. In any case, the Leave campaign would have spent a lot of time telling us that the independent office was in the government's pocket. Pretty much every single independent expert came out for Remain anyway and people ignored them.

The idea is that the EU passes emergency legislation for an "Article 50 light" option. The UK would trigger it, and then serious negotiations would occur. Once completed, the package would be put to a vote: "yes" and we adopt it; "no" and we trigger the "real" Art 50.

That requires the cooperation of the other EU states. My impression is that they are in no mood to be nice to us right now.

[floo]

This is my last words on this thread and indeed this board for awhile:

Rose you are deluded. There is no return to a mythical England of yesteryear. When are you choosing the 50's? the 60's? the 70's. Think about what they were really like for ordinary people and then try getting anyone to actually go back to that. They won't want to. I'm all for pulling together but not to the extent that I wish everyone was poorer, in worse health and lived in poorer housing. You are actually really, really mad if you believe your own post.

Still it would perhaps ensure we wouldn't have the totally unedifying sight and sound of English football fans chanting: "We're all voting out" at French people. Mind you they got their wish in another way last night.

I am so very glad Iceland won, a hilarious kick in the teeth for all those nasty England fans who have caused mayhem in France!

[jeremyp]

I'm looking at what a shortage of money could lead to. A return to a time most people couldn't have a package holiday because only the wealthy jetted off into the sun.

For some people, it might lead to not being able to afford a package holiday. For others it might lead to not being able to afford a house.