Scottish Independance

[Bubbles]

I've pointed that out several times, jeremy.  However, since Scotland was a part of the UK at the time of the referendum, whatever the politicians in Westminster decide will be binding on Scotland. 
Not if the Scots are seen to have jumped ship whilst the UK are still technically part of the EU - ie sometime within the next 2 years or so.

A couple of problems.

They haven't sorted out what currency they are going to use yet.
I don't think anyone left in the UK would be happy with them using the pound and the EU might insist they use the Euro, which might put some off voting independance.


Scotland doesn't qualify to join the EU yet, there are other finances to sort out as well as the fact they have to qualify financially as well as already being independant when they apply. Applying wouldn't be instant either.

They can't veto the vote of the rest of the U.K., because if they tried all it would mean is they wouldn't get a voice in the exit.

It would go on without them.

All they can do is to try and negotiate exit terms that are not detrimental to Scotland and keep their voice in it.

Exiting the EU is not reliant on the agreement of Scotland. They are not a sovereign state in their own right.

It's going to happen anyway.


It's going to take them longer than 2 years to leave the UK, then they have to be ready to qualify for the EU.

Which is going to take as long again to join the EU.

They are not a separate country that has a history of trading so they won't have a separate credit rating.

There are as many issues with them joining the EU as a new country with no credit history, as there are them leaving the UK.

It's not impossible to sort out, but it all takes time.

For Scotland to achieve all that is going to take more than 2 years for us to exit.

They can't even apply to the EU until they are independant, even then it may take ages to negotiate something they can accept.

The EU could insist they use the Euro, if only to demonstrate they are truly independant of the U.K.  and not some sort of back door for the uk to enjoy privileges of EU membership.

I think they might get a bumpy ride in that I think the EU would insist they use the euro and make the break from the Bank of England and the pound.

[jeremyp]

They can't do that.

Are you an expert in British constitutional law now? I sincerely hope they can and do veto.

[jeremyp]

A couple of problems.

They haven't sorted out what currency they are going to use yet.

This was the weakness of their case last time. The answer is obvious though. They should join the Euro.

They can't veto the vote of the rest of the U.K., because if they tried all it would mean is they wouldn't get a voice in the exit.

There wouldn't be an exit if Scotland vetoes it. That's what "veto" means.

Exiting the EU is not reliant on the agreement of Scotland. They are not a sovereign state in their own right.

That really doesn't matter. What does matter is British constitutional law. If there is a clause that says we need agreement of all of the devolved parliaments, Scotland can veto Brexit.

It's going to happen anyway.

What Brexit? I think you might be right. With it being obvious that Scotland will leave the UK if the UK leaves the EU, the next PM is going to have a tough time not destroying their career either way.

It's going to take them longer than 2 years to leave the UK, then they have to be ready to qualify for the EU.

Which is going to take as long again to join the EU.

You do understand that the Scottish leadership has already begun the process of joining the EU? They can't do anything official until they achieve independence, of course, but you'll find out that the path has been smoothed over as soon as they achieve independence.

[Nearly Sane]

Dear ad and Jeremyp,

As Nicola Sturgeon kept repeating all morning, there are no rules, uncharted territory, and as she is the only politician of note, not in hiding or being stabbed in the back then the field is wide open for her to explore any avenue she chooses, I heard something about a reverse Greenland issue and the unification of Germany after the wall came down, oh and ad, when you tell a Scotsman person they can't do something, the immediate thought is "oh you bloody well think so".

Gonnagle.

I think Brian Taylor on the Scottish Politics was right on this. Nicola will try everything to try and keep Scotland in without calling a referendum but nothing will work. Neither the reverse Greenland nor the unification models really stretch to this. And I think Nicola is being utterly genuine in admitting that this us the case. That leads to a referendum even if Nicola does not think she will win.

I also think Brian Taylor right that the legislative consent route won't work. But it could hold things up if it has to be investigated

[Bubbles]

This was the weakness of their case last time. The answer is obvious though. They should join the Euro.
There wouldn't be an exit if Scotland vetoes it. That's what "veto" means.

That really doesn't matter. What does matter is British constitutional law. If there is a clause that says we need agreement of all of the devolved parliaments, Scotland can veto Brexit.

What Brexit? I think you might be right. With it being obvious that Scotland will leave the UK if the UK leaves the EU, the next PM is going to have a tough time not destroying their career either way.

You do understand that the Scottish leadership has already begun the process of joining the EU? They can't do anything official until they achieve independence, of course, but you'll find out that the path has been smoothed over as soon as they achieve independence.

I know what a veto means Jeremy.

But in this instance the " veto" is toothless.

It's the primeminister that puts forward the application to exit, not ms sturgeon.

Plus they haven't applied for membership at all, not according to Ms Sturgeon this morning.

No one has agreed they can join, they are still looking at what they need to do to join.

They don't qualify ATM. Not just because they are not independant.

I am shocked at what a bad loser you are, grasping at straws, like a drowning man.


It's time you accepted remain lost, it was a democratic vote and over 70% of the population turned out to vote.

[Bubbles]

I think Brian Taylor on the Scottish Politics was right on this. Nicola will try everything to try and keep Scotland in without calling a referendum but nothing will work. Neither the reverse Greenland nor the unification models really stretch to this. And I think Nicola is being utterly genuine in admitting that this us the case. That leads to a referendum even if Nicola does not think she will win.

I also think Brian Taylor right that the legislative consent route won't work. But it could hold things up if it has to be investigated

I saw her in an interview this morning and it seems to me she is trying to lessen the impact this leaving the EU will have on Scotland and she said this was the focus of her attention ATM, not an independant Scotland.

Obviously that will raise its head, but I think all the politicians are too busy trying to sort out their own policies ATM, because I don't think they thought it would happen.

I think other people put words in her mouth and make her sound extreme and nutty, she sounded quite reasonable to me.


She is doing what I would expect her to do, trying to protect the interests of people in Scotland who voted remain.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Rose,

I am a bad loser to and judging by the reception Boris got after the vote me and Jeremy are ( Jeremy and I ) not alone, oh and BTW, you don't happen to know, as Jeremy and Trent put it, "what's the fucking plan" just asking

Gonnagle.

[Bubbles]

Dear Rose,

I am a bad loser to and judging by the reception Boris got after the vote me and Jeremy are ( Jeremy and I ) not alone, oh and BTW, you don't happen to know, as Jeremy and Trent put it, "what's the fucking plan" just asking

Gonnagle.

The plan is to " keep calm, and carry on "   


The politicians are trying to hammer something together.

Nicola Sturgeon is working on a way of protecting Scottish interests, given how most voted remain.

When the dust has cleared, they'll let us know.

I'm not a bad loser, I'm moving on and thinking we need to move forward now in the best way we can.

I'm waiting to hear their plans too. 

[Nearly Sane]

I saw her in an interview this morning and it seems to me she is trying to lessen the impact this leaving the EU will have on Scotland and she said this was the focus of her attention ATM, not an independant Scotland.

Obviously that will raise its head, but I think all the politicians are too busy trying to sort out their own policies ATM, because I don't think they thought it would happen.

I think other people put words in her mouth and make her sound extreme and nutty, she sounded quite reasonable to me.


She is doing what I would expect her to do, trying to protect the interests of people in Scotland who voted remain.

. No, she clearly stated that she would do everything to ensure Scotland remains  in the EU.

[Hope]

When the dust has cleared, they'll let us know.

But when will the dust clear, Rose?  The earliest will be once the negotiations for our exit have been sorted, but I can only see that as being the end of the beginning; our economy, migration issues, legal system will take years to even get anywhere near where they were before last Thursday's vote.  I would like to suggest that the only positive outcome of the vote is that both the Labour and Tory parties will crumble and we will be forced into a form of proportional representation - even if only because I can't see there being a monolithic party like either of these parties in the near future.

[floo]

They can't do that.

Time will tell.

[Hope]

I saw her in an interview this morning and it seems to me she is trying to lessen the impact this leaving the EU will have on Scotland and she said this was the focus of her attention ATM, not an independant Scotland.

I thought she is seeking to impose Scottish opinions on the rest of the UK, by asking for a Scottish Parliament veto of the referendum result.

[Nearly Sane]

I thought she is seeking to impose Scottish opinions on the rest of the UK, by asking for a Scottish Parliament veto of the referendum result.

No, she mentioned it as an option.

[Hope]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-36633244

If Scotland could veto the Brexit vote, GO FOR IT!

'If' being the pertinent point, Floo.  As far as I am aware, the referendum was a UK-wide re3ferendum with its outcome being potentially binding (albeit it not legally so) on all 4 parts of the UK.

Perhaps, if there is a 2nd S.I. referendum, the rest of the UK will be allowed a say, rather than it being restricted to a population who vetoed the idea 20 months ago.

[Bubbles]

. No, she clearly stated that she would do everything to ensure Scotland remains  in the EU.

No doubt, but she can't overturn a democratic vote of the U.K.

Nor can she stop the prime minister putting forward article 50 when he is ready.

Apparently the EU isn't even looking for a formal letter, just an acknowledgement from the PM

We watched the interview and I think the press are misquoting what she actually said.

[jeremyp]

The plan is to " keep calm, and carry on "   

That's really not much of a plan. That's probably the plan they had on the Titanic when they found out they were in iceberg infested waters.

The politicians are trying to hammer something together.

Are they? Which ones? Have you got any evidence of that?

As far as I can see, the only politician who has a clear plan is David Cameron and he is the one who lost.

Nicola Sturgeon is working on a way of protecting Scottish interests, given how most voted remain.

Apologies, yes, Nicola Sturgeon also has a plan, I stand corrected.

You know, when she first took over from Alex Salmond, I thought she was a bit of a lightweight, but she's proved to be an immensely able politician and leader.

When the dust has cleared, they'll let us know.

And what if, when the dust has cleared we find we are living in a barren jobless wasteland?

[Nearly Sane]

No doubt, but she can't overturn a democratic vote of the U.K.

Nor can she stop the prime minister putting forward article 50 when he is ready.

She at no point has said about getting a good deal for Scotland outside the EU which us what you stated.

Nor has she said anything about stopping article 50.


The position is that she will look to keep Scotland in the EU by negotiation. Whether this is possible by some reverse Greenland position, I think unlikely but that's an approach. It may be, though I think it unlikely, that the actual legislation to exit (not Article 50) could be subject to legislative consent from the Scottish Parliament. If it was then a veto would apply.

As already expressed I think these approaches will fail and then we end up with indyref2., but as Nicola has been repeatedly saying this Is uncharted waters and she doesn't
, nor does anyone else, know things with certainty. That's why she will consult with those evil things, experts, and with the EU.

[Nearly Sane]

Note Scottish Govt now saying it does not have veto. So it would certainly appear that fox has been pretty comprehensively shot. Just to underline here. This is in general a host of unknown unknowns and options will need to be thought of and looked at.

[Nearly Sane]

Dear Rose,

I am a bad loser to and judging by the reception Boris got after the vote me and Jeremy are ( Jeremy and I ) not alone, oh and BTW, you don't happen to know, as Jeremy and Trent put it, "what's the fucking plan" just asking

Gonnagle.

Just to note, Gonzo, that Faisal Islam was asking a Brexit supporting Tory MP what the plan was and was told that there was no plan amongst the leave organisation and that was no 10s job


https://m.youtube.com/?#/watch?v=thu4I9Wd1Hg

[Bubbles]

She at no point has said about getting a good deal for Scotland outside the EU which us what you stated.

Nor has she said anything about stopping article 50.


The position is that she will look to keep Scotland in the EU by negotiation. Whether this is possible by some reverse Greenland position, I think unlikely but that's an approach. It may be, though I think it unlikely, that the actual legislation to exit (not Article 50) could be subject to legislative consent from the Scottish Parliament. If it was then a veto would apply.

As already expressed I think these approaches will fail and then we end up with indyref2., but as Nicola has been repeatedly saying this Is uncharted waters and she doesn't
, nor does anyone else, know things with certainty. That's why she will consult with those evil things, experts, and with the EU.

Outside the EU?  I didn't mention outside the EU.

As for the veto...
No I didn't think she said that either, because I watched the interview and if you look up the thread you will see I said she she came across as reasonable.

I also said I thought she had been misquoted by the media who are all reporting she is going to block the Brexit.

It was Jeremy who brought that one up.

Followed by hope.

I wish you would read what I actually said.

[Nearly Sane]

Outside the EU?  I didn't mention outside the EU.

As for the veto...
No I didn't think she said that either, because I watched the interview and if you look up the thread you will see I said she she came across as reasonable.

I also said I thought she had been misquoted by the media who are all reporting she is going to block the Brexit.

It was Jeremy who brought that one up.

Followed by hope.

I wish you would read what I actually said.

To quote you


'I saw her in an interview this morning and it seems to me she is trying to lessen the impact this leaving the EU will have on Scotland and she said this was the focus of her attention ATM, not an independant Scotland.'


This talks about dealing with Scotland having left the EU, not trying to stay in..

You have missed the point about the veto\article 50 but since it has been ruled out by the Scottish govt now, the point is moot

[Bubbles]

misquoted by the media who are all reporting she is going to block the Brexit.

It was Jeremy who brought that one up.


To quote you


'I saw her in an interview this morning and it seems to me she is trying to lessen the impact this leaving the EU will have on Scotland and she said this was the focus of her attention ATM, not an independant Scotland.'


This talks about dealing with Scotland having left the EU, not trying to stay in.

Yes, she is trying to lessen the negative impact on Scotland because the rest of the U.K. has chosen to leave the EU

Obviously she wants to stay in and is trying to come up with a way of Scotland staying in.

But the bottom line was protecting Scotland.

It wasn't about a second referendum at this point in time.

At the most she is looking for a way to remain in the EU, at the least if she can't do that, she is looking to lessen the impact on Scotland.

[Nearly Sane]

Yes, she is trying to lessen the negative impact on Scotland because the rest of the U.K. has chosen to leave.

Obviously she wants to stay in and is trying to come up with a way of Scotland staying in.

But the bottom line was protecting Scotland.

It wasn't about a second referendum at this point in time.

Thank you for the clarification, but where has she talked about what would happen beyond staying in the EU?

[Bubbles]

🌹🍷👍🏻

[Gordon]

One thing that is obvious, to me at least, in that the only senior politician who is both visible and competently addressing the issues that concern her electorate, given the Scottish vote, is our First Minister.

She is also pointing out that we are in a new situation for which there is no precedent and that those who allowed this unnecessary referendum in the first place by putting party before country and who didn't expect they result they got, nor those who did get the result they wanted, seem to have a plan to deal with the outcome: Labour are currently imploding, Tories of whatever leanings are invisible and hopefully someone has put Farage back in the sewer he crawled out of.

The irony of being told in 2014 that if we wanted to stay in the EU we needed to remain in the UK leaves a bitter taste: but for us at least independence from the UK remains a valid option, else 2014 wouldn't have happened. It will be interesting to see whether the various elements of the Westminster mafia get their act together, but I doubt it given the current shambles they have all masterminded, so as this farce plays out I'd imagine that many Scots who voted to stay in the UK my well take a different view when, inevitably, there is a second referendum.

Those I feel sorry for elsewhere in the UK are those in England and Wales (not sure what options NI have) who, as things stand, will be forced to stomach the consequences of this folly - I can well understand why the likes of Jeremy feel angry.