Author Topic: Red on Red, Labour implode  (Read 44552 times)

Brownie

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Re: Red on Red, Labour implode
« Reply #75 on: June 29, 2016, 03:54:20 PM »
Maybe so, especially as so many have resigned and seem to have lost confidence in him.  Yet Corbyn hasn't done anything wrong, it's his sins of omission that seem to be the problem.   Everyone is baying for him - I even heard someone say that he secretly voted Brexit!
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jakswan

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Re: Red on Red, Labour implode
« Reply #76 on: June 29, 2016, 04:06:48 PM »
It is very difficult to get inside the head of someone like that.  How does he imagine anything good is going to come out of his ridiculous stand? He has just paralysed the whole party.

If the party don't get rid of Corbyn it will be very bad news for Labour.

Oh come on I don't agree with JCs politics but he is very principled and is standing up for his ideals. As he see's it this is fight for the Labour party, does it become a Socialist party and stand up for those ideals or does it go back to the centre and fight for power.

You, me, the PLP all may think he can't win a general election but he might not, and even then he's not going to sell out now.

The PLP need to accept they have lost and declare UDI, its open war and deselection is inevitable unless they act.
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L.A.

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Re: Red on Red, Labour implode
« Reply #77 on: June 29, 2016, 04:19:26 PM »
Oh come on I don't agree with JCs politics but he is very principled and is standing up for his ideals. As he see's it this is fight for the Labour party, does it become a Socialist party and stand up for those ideals or does it go back to the centre and fight for power.

You, me, the PLP all may think he can't win a general election but he might not, and even then he's not going to sell out now.

The PLP need to accept they have lost and declare UDI, its open war and deselection is inevitable unless they act.

I think it's the siege of Stalingrad in Jeremy's mind, it's gone way beyond plain stubbornness. They need to call the men in white coats.
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Jack Knave

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Re: Red on Red, Labour implode
« Reply #78 on: June 29, 2016, 05:33:43 PM »
Corbyn has done this for years whilst I disagree with his politics he has stood for his ideals for years in the abyss, he isn't going to go now when he stands to win what he see's as everything. Given that the Labour party is now full of socialists there is no way he is going to lose.

The only play for the PLP is to declare UDI.
I don't think Corbyn has ever been loyal to the Labour party, just used it as a convenient platform for his Leftie type views. So he has no concerns for the health of the party only for his lot to carry on. So he'll just keep going til something snaps.

Jack Knave

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Re: Red on Red, Labour implode
« Reply #79 on: June 29, 2016, 05:45:47 PM »
Labour is historically a coalition between unions, membership and MPs.   Blair downgraded the unions, and the MPs want to downgrade the membership, which Corbyn relies on, so there is a kind of civil war.   I think also the Blair/Brownites fear deselection if there is a general election, and are getting in their retaliation first.
I'm not sure how all this is going to work with the time frame I think we are talking about here. If a GE is called after the Tories elect their leader won't this be pretty soon after this? When will Article 50 be implemented - before or after the GE? If the GE process takes some time after the Tory leader is installed and then Art 50 is activated the EU will not be happy.

So looking at your comments, will the Labour machine have time to vote in a new leader and all that that fighting will entail, and then deselect all, or most of, their candidates for a GE. Just seems they will be half dressed for the ball...?

Jack Knave

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Re: Red on Red, Labour implode
« Reply #80 on: June 29, 2016, 05:50:53 PM »
It is very difficult to get inside the head of someone like that. How does he imagine anything good is going to come out of his ridiculous stand? He has just paralysed the whole party.

If the party don't get rid of Corbyn it will be very bad news for Labour.
No it's not. He's fixated on his agenda like a dog with a bone. He isn't going to let go.

L.A.

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Re: Red on Red, Labour implode
« Reply #81 on: June 29, 2016, 06:42:53 PM »
Anyone who seriously believes that Jeremy's actions are doing Labour any good might like to watch this:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/video_and_audio/headlines/36664672
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jeremyp

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Re: Red on Red, Labour implode
« Reply #82 on: June 29, 2016, 07:02:23 PM »
I don't think Corbyn has ever been loyal to the Labour party, just used it as a convenient platform for his Leftie type views.
The Labour Party is meant to be a party of the left.

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Jack Knave

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Re: Red on Red, Labour implode
« Reply #83 on: June 29, 2016, 07:09:27 PM »
The Labour Party is meant to be a party of the left.
Yes I know, but there are different positions that are seen as being on the left/hard left etc. Corbyn's are not geared to be entrenched in the Labour party machine, hence all the upset. And I have my doubts whether he cares much for the Labour party machine.

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Re: Red on Red, Labour implode
« Reply #84 on: June 29, 2016, 07:10:24 PM »
The Labour Party is meant to be a party of the left.
You are replying to Jack Knave who thinks that Nigel Farage is an anti Neo liberal capitalist

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Re: Red on Red, Labour implode
« Reply #85 on: June 29, 2016, 07:11:53 PM »
Yes I know, but there are different positions that are seen as being on the left/hard left etc. Corbyn's are not geared to be entrenched in the Labour party machine, hence all the upset. And I have my doubts whether he cares much for the Labour party machine.
He is there because of it, and believes he will stay because of it.

L.A.

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Re: Red on Red, Labour implode
« Reply #86 on: June 29, 2016, 07:19:38 PM »
He is there because of it, and believes he will stay because of it.

No on actually knows for sure what he believes, he might well believe that he was appointed by aliens from the planet Zog for all we know. The only thing that we can conclude that whatever it is he believes, it's pretty irrational.
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jakswan

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Re: Red on Red, Labour implode
« Reply #87 on: June 29, 2016, 07:25:10 PM »
I don't think Corbyn has ever been loyal to the Labour party, just used it as a convenient platform for his Leftie type views. So he has no concerns for the health of the party only for his lot to carry on. So he'll just keep going til something snaps.

You are talking about the Labour party like its a static thing, it has a history of battles between the socialists and centre left. Corbyn, and those that support him main concern is fighting for their ideals, the centre left are fighting for theirs.

Its not the good guys vs the bad guys.
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jakswan

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Re: Red on Red, Labour implode
« Reply #88 on: June 29, 2016, 07:26:51 PM »
No on actually knows for sure what he believes, he might well believe that he was appointed by aliens from the planet Zog for all we know. The only thing that we can conclude that whatever it is he believes, it's pretty irrational.

He is a socialist, I'm not but I'm not labelling him irrational, it is a perfectly respectable political position. 
Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Red on Red, Labour implode
« Reply #89 on: June 29, 2016, 07:46:32 PM »
No on actually knows for sure what he believes, he might well believe that he was appointed by aliens from the planet Zog for all we know. The only thing that we can conclude that whatever it is he believes, it's pretty irrational.

No, it's very clear what he believes, unless you want to bring hard solipsism  into it, in which case that's a truism.


And while I agree with you that he is wrong, simply sticking irrational on it isn't an argument.

L.A.

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Re: Red on Red, Labour implode
« Reply #90 on: June 30, 2016, 06:47:33 AM »
He is a socialist, I'm not but I'm not labelling him irrational, it is a perfectly respectable political position.

Personally I would define socialism as irrational, but that aside, he is unlikely to actually help his cause by his ludicrous action. As Cameron pointed out, the only ones who gain from this are the Tories and the country has lost an opposition party. UKIP meanwhile are now in a position where they could replace Labour.

Well done Jeremy!
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L.A.

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Re: Red on Red, Labour implode
« Reply #91 on: June 30, 2016, 06:57:58 AM »
No, it's very clear what he believes, unless you want to bring hard solipsism  into it, in which case that's a truism.


And while I agree with you that he is wrong, simply sticking irrational on it isn't an argument.

He is not fighting a winnable battle, that is irrational. If he leaves there is a chance he will be replaced by someone who shares at lease some of his views and the party can move on. If he stays Labour will be unelectable and lose loads of seats at the next election - even worse, it will lose many of them to UKIP - so much for socialism!

The only ray of hope is that the Three Quid Votes might work for Angela Eagle this time - who knows, I might buy one myself, not much more than a Lotto ticket and more chance of winning. :)
« Last Edit: June 30, 2016, 08:08:42 AM by L.A. »
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Re: Red on Red, Labour implode
« Reply #92 on: June 30, 2016, 07:55:16 AM »
Problem.

You have a general election.

You have the conservatives who IMO have basically destroyed the uk with their ideals of democracy and handing the choices over to the public vote. ( both the Scottish and the Eu one )

Then You have the liberal democrats .... Who appear to have left the building ..... and no longer seem to have a voice anymore.

Then there is the Labour Party which is falling apart, resigning in large numbers and unable to organise a piss up at a brewery or even get the leader to step down when he doesn't have any support.

Which of this lot is actually worth voting for?

As far as I can see none of them have acted in the countries interest.

Liberal democrats don't seem to have much of voice anymore.

I don't want UKIP to get in, but I don't want to vote for conservative or labour either.

 :(

If enough people feel as fed up as I do, goodness only knows who will get in.  :o

I'm so disallusioned with the whole flippin scenario, if I wasn't concerned about UKIP getting in, I'd stay home and not bother.

As it is, I feel I ought to vote for either Conservative or labour so UKIP don't pass the post  >:( I feel I have a responsibility towards others in the uk who might suffer if he got in)

But I don't really want to vote for any of em  :(


« Last Edit: June 30, 2016, 08:12:32 AM by Rose »

Gonnagle

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Re: Red on Red, Labour implode
« Reply #93 on: June 30, 2016, 08:21:42 AM »
Dear World Gone totally Bonkers,

Who would I want right now running the country.

Cameron, the man who broke Britain, no.

Boris, seriously! I was quite happy with him playing silly buggers with London ( sorry London ) but can you imagine this man negotiating a brexit deal.

Actually, do I want a Tory government, no, their austerity programme has failed Britain, of course they did have to make cuts, they were handed a country hit by a banking crisis, but they targeted the weak, they have failed to invest in the NHS properly, they slashed council budgets, which has trickled down to the ordinary man/woman in the street.

The Tories and previous Blairite governments have failed the ordinary man, this is why so many Labour supporters have registered a protest UKIP vote, the Tories and Labour failed to address immigration properly, yes there is an influx of EU migrants, but your ordinary man did not see any investment in their area to address their needs.

Unemployment and the NHS crisis was put at the feet of immigration, no mention of Tory failure to invest, it's the migrants fault, shameful.

What about Farage, Mr Who's got the last laugh now, no, and this man should be locked away until we have sorted out what we are going to do about brexit.

Who is the one person still asking important questions in the House of Common, who is the one person asking for investment in the country, who was the one person who was honest about brexit.

Who knows that a totally capitalist society is a busted flush, who knows that we can't keep lurching from one crash to another, who knows that to make a country successful you need to invest in that country, give it the ways and means and not put up barriers, free education for all, invest in the unemployed, give them the training needed, free, that is an investment for the long term.

Who is that man, Mr Corbyn, the world is turning, you can either lurch even farther to the right, see a further rise in hatred or accept that we need to think differently, share the wealth and this country will flourish, do not and all we are doing is storing up further misery for our children.

Mr Corbyn is no great orator, but he does know how to fix this country, time to stop the sound bite and listen to commonsense.

Of course, having said all the above, Nicola Sturgeon can't be the UK Prime Minister, well can she :o :o

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Re: Red on Red, Labour implode
« Reply #94 on: June 30, 2016, 09:05:23 AM »
Dear World Gone totally Bonkers,

Who would I want right now running the country.

Cameron, the man who broke Britain, no.

Boris, seriously! I was quite happy with him playing silly buggers with London ( sorry London ) but can you imagine this man negotiating a brexit deal.

Actually, do I want a Tory government, no, their austerity programme has failed Britain, of course they did have to make cuts, they were handed a country hit by a banking crisis, but they targeted the weak, they have failed to invest in the NHS properly, they slashed council budgets, which has trickled down to the ordinary man/woman in the street.

The Tories and previous Blairite governments have failed the ordinary man, this is why so many Labour supporters have registered a protest UKIP vote, the Tories and Labour failed to address immigration properly, yes there is an influx of EU migrants, but your ordinary man did not see any investment in their area to address their needs.

Unemployment and the NHS crisis was put at the feet of immigration, no mention of Tory failure to invest, it's the migrants fault, shameful.

What about Farage, Mr Who's got the last laugh now, no, and this man should be locked away until we have sorted out what we are going to do about brexit.

Who is the one person still asking important questions in the House of Common, who is the one person asking for investment in the country, who was the one person who was honest about brexit.

Who knows that a totally capitalist society is a busted flush, who knows that we can't keep lurching from one crash to another, who knows that to make a country successful you need to invest in that country, give it the ways and means and not put up barriers, free education for all, invest in the unemployed, give them the training needed, free, that is an investment for the long term.

Who is that man, Mr Corbyn, the world is turning, you can either lurch even farther to the right, see a further rise in hatred or accept that we need to think differently, share the wealth and this country will flourish, do not and all we are doing is storing up further misery for our children.

Mr Corbyn is no great orator, but he does know how to fix this country, time to stop the sound bite and listen to commonsense.

Of course, having said all the above, Nicola Sturgeon can't be the UK Prime Minister, well can she :o :o

Gonnagle.

Strangely, Cameron seems to be one of the few people who have the interests of Labour at heart.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36661200

Corbyn is no great orator, and no great thinker - if he was he would realise the damage he is doing.
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jakswan

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Re: Red on Red, Labour implode
« Reply #95 on: June 30, 2016, 09:10:17 AM »
Mr Corbyn is no great orator, but he does know how to fix this country, time to stop the sound bite and listen to commonsense.

Also Apple Pie and Mother Love.

Quote
Of course, having said all the above, Nicola Sturgeon can't be the UK Prime Minister, well can she :o :o

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jakswan

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Re: Red on Red, Labour implode
« Reply #96 on: June 30, 2016, 09:13:48 AM »
He is not fighting a winnable battle, that is irrational.

If he sees winning that the Labour party moves to a more socialist outlook then it is winnable.

The Socialists won't surrender, the centre-left won't surrender, a split is inevitable the fight is over who gets to call themselves Labour.
Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.
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Gonnagle

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Re: Red on Red, Labour implode
« Reply #97 on: June 30, 2016, 09:16:00 AM »
Dear Lapsed,

Listening to sound bite old fella, what damage is he doing, asking to invest in Britain, sound advice as far as I am concerned, and compared to what Cameron has done, any damage Mr Corbyn is doing pales into insignificance.

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Gonnagle

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Re: Red on Red, Labour implode
« Reply #98 on: June 30, 2016, 09:25:19 AM »
Dear Jakswan,

You are like a old gramophone record, the needle is stuck, socialist, centre left, far left, liberal, far right, right of centre, it's over, stop using all the old cliches, you don't have to be any of the above, start thinking about words like fairness, equality, compassion.

The old ways are done, we can have a mixture of all the above, start asking what is good for the country, not just a certain section of the country but all the country.

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Re: Red on Red, Labour implode
« Reply #99 on: June 30, 2016, 09:29:23 AM »
If he sees winning that the Labour party moves to a more socialist outlook then it is winnable.

It's as if he is wearing a Virtual Reality headset showing 1970's newsreels.

Quote
The Socialists won't surrender, the centre-left won't surrender, a split is inevitable the fight is over who gets to call themselves Labour.

The Socialist are a tiny but active minority - they can never win an election. If Labour can't force them back into the woodwork they are finished.

Interestingly, I am receiving emails from friends who are Labour supporters asking me to vote for Eagle -  and I think I might do that.
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