Red on Red, Labour implode

[jakswan]

My answers are not easy answers, reduce or totally get rid of trident, increase and train our troops on the ground, give them the equipment they need, increase our air force and navy, not only for conflict but to send them to disaster areas, renationalise the railway, allow our population to travel to work without breaking the bank, more money in their pockets means more money to spend on goods which increases productivity, stop messing about with education, stop telling our kids that university is the only goal, we need plumbers, electricians, builders, make education free for everybody, education is a tried and tested way to increase a countries productivity, open up colleges not shut them, make leisure centres free or only charge a nominal fee, better health decreases the impact on our NHS.

So mostly a left wing idealistic agenda, some of which, not everyone, will agree with. Lets take one policy:-

stop telling our kids that university is the only goal, we need plumbers, electricians, builders, make education free for everybody, education is a tried and tested way to increase a countries productivity, open up colleges not shut them

So you want to encourage kids into apprenticeships rather than further education, but want to make further education free and open more colleges. Care to explain the apparent contradiction and who will pay for this?

Not easy just commonsense.

You forget to mention apple pie and mother love.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Jakswan,

So mostly a left wing idealistic agenda, some of which, not everyone, will agree with. Lets take one policy:-

Aye that's me, Mr Left Wing, do the left wing want to have the best most fully equipped fighting force in the world.

So you want to encourage kids into apprenticeships rather than further education, but want to make further education free and open more colleges. Care to explain the apparent contradiction and who will pay for this?

No not rather than, also, no contradiction, we all pay, everybody including the big companies who take but do not give back, tax them properly, there is, and it's a fact, enough money to go round, if done fairly.

Apparently the Bank of England has 250 billion going spare.

Gonnagle.

[Hope]

With Boris gone, just imagine if Labour were united behind their leader.

Then we'd have been even more definitely for Brexit, wiggi.

[jeremyp]

That's the first bit of good news I've heard for a long time.

Not if Gove gets in.

It seems to leave May as favourite!

She's a brave woman.

[jakswan]

Aye that's me, Mr Left Wing, do the left wing want to have the best most fully equipped fighting force in the world.

Left wing denotes tendency you can be right / left wing on a variety of issues.

No not rather than, also, no contradiction, we all pay, everybody including the big companies who take but do not give back, tax them properly, there is, and it's a fact, enough money to go round, if done fairly.

So more tax for education and apprenticeships, if we want better education wouldn't we be better taking off the Scottish Parliament I hear SNP have made a bit of a mess of it recently.

The big companies left when they heard you were in charge Gonzo.

Apparently the Bank of England has 250 billion going spare.

[/quote]

So leave the pound and banks collapse?

[Gonnagle]

Dear Jakswan,

The big companies left when they heard you were in charge Gonzo.

Then let them leave, that will be 63.5 million customers they will lose.

Gonnagle.

[Harrowby Hall]

So you want to encourage kids into apprenticeships rather than further education, but want to make further education free and open more colleges. Care to explain the apparent contradiction and who will pay for this?

It would help if you knew what you are talking about.

The study mode for electricians, plumbers etc is "Further education". "Higher education" is that conducted at first degree level and higher.

Once upon a time we had a superb further education system which allowed entry into vocational education and also lifetime education. This both provided appropriate education and training as well as opportunities for retraining for a very wide range of occupations as well as the opportunity to allow people to re-enter academic study at any age.

A brilliant wizzo idea of the Blair government was that 50% of school leavers should go straight into higher education. This, it was argued, would remove the unflattering comparison of the UK with other countries (specifically the USA and western Europe) in which UK universities recruited less than half the number of students that other countries did, What the comparison did not include were:
      (a) the high drop out rate in other countries - the UK completion rate was over 90%
      (b) the relatively favourable student/staff ratio in the UK HE system - teachers were not remote and there was the opportunity for tutorial not just lecture modes of tuition
       (c) the ability to produce high quality graduates in three years instead of five or six.

The real reason for encouraging  university entrance was to reduce structural unemployment and make employment statistics look more favourable.

We now have several times the number of "universities" than before this increase. The cost of the innovation has been so great that it has been decided to let the students themselves bear the cost - they graduate now with a huge debt. A (possibly unforeseen) consequence of this is that they no longer perceive themselves to be students - bearing some responsibility for the quality of their own progress - but as consumers able to blame others for their own lack of progress.

Do you really think that the situation we have ended up with really benefits the nation?

[Jack Knave]

He is there because of it, and believes he will stay because of it.

The 'because of it' is in fact a load of people who joined at the last minute for £3, not because of the longstanding Labour party machine - except of course the naïve twats who thought it would be quaint to nominate him just for completion of the breath of beliefs in the party.

[Jack Knave]

You are talking about the Labour party like its a static thing, it has a history of battles between the socialists and centre left. Corbyn, and those that support him main concern is fighting for their ideals, the centre left are fighting for theirs.

Its not the good guys vs the bad guys.

But the radical left, and all that, tend not to like taking power because all their dreams fall apart when reality hits them. They prefer to be on the side lines chanting their slogans and shouting down those in power. Their very policies, if successful, destroy the very need for them and their quest to help the poor and down trodden. That is where Corbyn is and perhaps unconsciously knows that the Labour party represent this mainstream, ruling lot that they like to decry and so he has no real loyalty to it, as, if he is successful in it his very cause and beliefs will vanish and as such is very reason for living.

[Jack Knave]

If he sees winning that the Labour party moves to a more socialist outlook then it is winnable.

The Socialists won't surrender, the centre-left won't surrender, a split is inevitable the fight is over who gets to call themselves Labour.

I can't either see any other outcome now for Labour. The PLP have made a stand which is unlikely to win and they can't back down without looking right dickheads and spineless. The only card they have for the leadership vote is project fear of Labour losing a GE.

[Jack Knave]

That's the first bit of good news I've heard for a long time.


It seems to leave May as favourite!

Gove's there. May's a remainer, that may prove difficult with the grassroots.

[Jack Knave]

Dear Matron,

It's all very clever, it's like it has been stage managed, their house will be in order much faster than Labour

Gonnagle.

And then the GE for a final killer blow.

[Jack Knave]

Somebody usually has to commit suicide, it might as well be Labour.

If the new Tory leader tries Brexit light then there will be war in their house as well, and with a small majority that could be fatal.

[Bubbles]

Someone said it costs £3 to join the labour membership.

It costs £129 to join the conservatives near me. £ 250 for a couple.

But then they seem to have posh social clubs to support.

 

[L.A.]

If the new Tory leader tries Brexit light then there will be war in their house as well, and with a small majority that could be fatal.

I'd say that the PM will be May and she will make Gove minister for Brexit. As one of the most prominent and credible Brexiteers, most people will accept whatever he come up with.

UKIP will obviously protest whatever deal we get, otherwise they would have lost their purpose in life.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I'd say that the PM will be May and she will make Gove minister for Brexit. As one of the most prominent and credible Brexiteers, most people will accept whatever he come up with.

UKIP will obviously protest whatever deal we get, otherwise they would have lost their purpose in life.

No I think Gove like Johnson will have Bottled it by then.

[L.A.]

No I think Gove like Johnson will have Bottled it by then.

I'd say the attitude of the next PM (if not overtly stated) will be "You made the mess, you sort it"

If he failed to rise to the challenge his name would be mud.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Lapsed and Vlad,

Nice conversation gentlemen, May becomes PM and she keeps Gove in her cabinet with the threat, you broke it, you fix it, but I think Vlad is right, Gove does not have the balls, he did not have a plan going into this referendum, he certainly does not have a plan now.

Nobody has a plan, not Labour not Tory, Sturgeon has a plan, but then she has always had a plan.

Dear Harrowby,

Post 131, excellent post sir, thank you.

Gonnagle.

[Ricky Spanish]

This spat has nothing to do with "Red on Red".

It seems more like the "Red" Thatcher Blairites lashing out in their death throws....

[jakswan]

Dear Harrowby,

Post 131, excellent post sir, thank you.

You want less universities now?

[Jack Knave]

I'd say that the PM will be May and she will make Gove minister for Brexit. As one of the most prominent and credible Brexiteers, most people will accept whatever he come up with.

UKIP will obviously protest whatever deal we get, otherwise they would have lost their purpose in life.

Don't May and Gove hate each other? I know Gove has rubbed a few up the wrong way, just can't remember if he's done that to May.

As for UKIP there is plenty for them to fight for. There is talk of some parties standing on a manifesto of re-joining the EU and UKIP are morphing into a party from a movement. And with the two main parties starting to splinter this would be the perfect time to step in and take power, of some sorts, probably part of a coalition.

[ProfessorDavey]

I'd say that the PM will be May and she will make Gove minister for Brexit. As one of the most prominent and credible Brexiteers, most people will accept whatever he come up with.

Whoever becomes PM I suspect he or she will appoint a minister for Brexit who is of the same view as to the preferred post-Brexit deal.

So I think that makes it very unlikely that May will appoint Gove - because although May wanted to remain, if we don't her key priority will be to retain access to the free market. Gove isn't of that view - he and Leadsom are rather sniffy about the benefits of the free market.

I think May will appoint someone to lead the negotiations who favours EEA membership.

[Jack Knave]

No I think Gove like Johnson will have Bottled it by then.

The thing about Gove is that he is hen pecked so he'll do what ever his wife tells him to do. I'm not sure where she stands but it seems to be with the Murdoch press....?

[Gonnagle]

Dear Jakswan,

You want less universities now?

Aye!! that's what I want, I want seats of learning closed, ya thoroughly nice person that you are

Dear Mods,

Any chance you could give Jakswan a wee job in the back office, keep him away from the forum, he is daein ma heid in.

Gonnagle.

[Jack Knave]

I'd say the attitude of the next PM (if not overtly stated) will be "You made the mess, you sort it"

If he failed to rise to the challenge his name would be mud.

If the next PM is a remainer then I'd would have thought that they would try and get a Brexit light deal.