Red on Red, Labour implode

[ProfessorDavey]

That was in reference to you not the new situation the UK finds itself in. In other words stop your whinging.

Speaking the truth about what we have seen in the last couple of weeks isn't whinging, it is ... speaking the truth.

And just as Ian Hislop so ably said on Question Time - just because I wasn't on the winning side in an election doesn't mean I have to shut up, to stop making my arguments and points. By that view there should never be any opposition to a government that has won an election - they should just shit up cos they lost. Nope, that isn't how it works JK - it is all the more important now to be heard, to make the case more strongly than ever as we can now see the actual effects of the brexit vote - you know all those negative effects that we said would happen, but were told were 'project fear' - well they weren't JK - they were project reality, and they are happening.

And do you know what I will fight as hard as I can to protect this country from harm, to protect the future of my children and future generations, and if that means looking to legal means - so be it, if it means campaigning for a second referendum before any actual brexit agreement is ratified - so be it, if it means ensuring that if we do eventually brexit that the settlement is as close to preserving the key benefits that we have enjoyed as a member of the EU - so be it.

And if you don't like that, well tough.

[Jack Knave]

Are you really trying to argue that everything is hunky-dory and rosy in the UK right now. We have no government with any authority, we have an opposition which has imploded, we are seeing the predicted negative economic effects of brexit materialising before our very eyes, we are seeing increases in xenophobic hate crime, there is a clear existential threat to the very existence of the UK, on the basis of a likely second referendum on Scottish independence. Plus there are other very direct effects that are hitting my professional world personally that I won't bore you with.

But like your leave 'leaders' Johnson, Gove and Farage you have created the mess and then are shuffling off the stage denying that you have any responsibility for the crisis created. It is you that needs to grow up and accept that as an instrument for the crisis you hold some level of responsibility for what happens. Currently it seems that those who will be left to pick up the pieces (assuming a May victory) will all be those that weren't responsible in the first place.

Change is always hard and unsettling but it is part of the growing pains from the old to the new.

So many straw men where shall I start..........arhh, the personal aspect. Now the truth is showing its head. So really this is all about you going, "Me, me, me!!!!!"

Actual the one responsible for all this is Cameron, a Remainer, who has buggered off. It was his job to provide contingency plans for a Brexit and to have the referendum organised in a proper way, not his usual cack handed Bullington bollocks approach to government.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

That was in reference to you not the new situation the UK finds itself in. In other words stop your whinging.

No, The Farage doctrine remains. As he said ''a 52-48 split is unfinished business leading to a second referendum''.

[Jack Knave]

I thought it was me you were referring to. But hey, why would I expect you to follow an argument in any kind of logical manner. As PD has pointed out more ably than I can - it's a fucking mess and those most responsible have all fucked off.

Leavers in every sense of the word.

It was aimed at all you whinging Remainers!!!

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Change is always hard and unsettling but it is part of the growing pains from the old to the new.

So many straw men where shall I start..........arhh, the personal aspect. Now the truth is showing its head. So really this is all about you going, "Me, me, me!!!!!"

Actual the one responsible for all this is Cameron, a Remainer, who has buggered off. It was his job to provide contingency plans for a Brexit and to have the referendum organised in a proper way, not his usual cack handed Bullington bollocks approach to government.

No he's actually going on about Us,Us,Us the 48 percent plus those who have come to realise it is a shit idea.

However if Mrs Leadsom does succeed Brexiters who wanted to give the establishment a bloody nose will be blessed with the....er....... establishment.

If one wanted Brexit and realised the economic mayhem then I would say that is just axegrinding and wanting equality of suffering on your part.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

It was aimed at all you whinging Remainers!!!

And I suppose you are not a desperate Brexitter quaking because your weird view of international relations most probably will be frustrated.

[ProfessorDavey]

So many straw men where shall I start..........arhh, the personal aspect. Now the truth is showing its head. So really this is all about you going, "Me, me, me!!!!!"

Nope it isn't all about 'me, me, me' at all - I suspect that I will be personally OK whatever happens. I am concerned about others and in particular the young and future generations.

And quite frankly the notion that remainers are all only in it for themselves, while brexiters are somehow as purely altruistic as the driven snow is frankly non-sense. Wasn't one of the key themes from leavers that 'all these foreigners are coming over taking our jobs' - well that is just as 'me, me, me'.

And seeing as you brought it up the 'personal aspect' that I wasn't going to bore you with (but will now) isn't personal in a direct manner, but professional. In the past few weeks I am aware of growing numbers of colleagues, who are top scientists who are already being excluded from joining consortiums that are working toward submitting bids for competitive research funding in the next year or so, even though they are currently still eligible. Other partners in other EU countries are becoming (not unreasonably) concerned that including a UK partner will jeopardise the likelihood of funding given the uncertainty over the future status of the UK in EU research funding terms.

And I have been officially asked to document these examples in order to provide a dossier that will be submitted to BIS and will land on the desk of the brother of the brexiter in chief (before he scarpered) - love to know how icy the relationships are in the Johnson family at the moment.

So by 'personally' I meant the negative effects on UK science and scientists.

[Jack Knave]

Speaking the truth about what we have seen in the last couple of weeks isn't whinging, it is ... speaking the truth.

And just as Ian Hislop so ably said on Question Time - just because I wasn't on the winning side in an election doesn't mean I have to shut up, to stop making my arguments and points. By that view there should never be any opposition to a government that has won an election - they should just shit up cos they lost. Nope, that isn't how it works JK - it is all the more important now to be heard, to make the case more strongly than ever as we can now see the actual effects of the brexit vote - you know all those negative effects that we said would happen, but were told were 'project fear' - well they weren't JK - they were project reality, and they are happening.

And do you know what I will fight as hard as I can to protect this country from harm, to protect the future of my children and future generations, and if that means looking to legal means - so be it, if it means campaigning for a second referendum before any actual brexit agreement is ratified - so be it, if it means ensuring that if we do eventually brexit that the settlement is as close to preserving the key benefits that we have enjoyed as a member of the EU - so be it.

And if you don't like that, well tough.

But when a GE result comes through the losers don't start crying and saying I don't like that result lets just ignore it and do what I want do they. They accept it and work within the bounds of that election, and so should the Remainers. They should respect the result and let it stand and be worked though.

[ProfessorDavey]

It was aimed at all you whinging Remainers!!!

Actually the most jaw-dropping whinging I've heard was from one N. Farage, in the European parliament with his pathetic 'I've got the biggest chip on my shoulder' whinge at all his colleagues - you know the one where he claimed they'd never had a proper job in their lives, yet was surrounded by people who had set up and run businesses, been surgeons, were in the military, were lawyers etc. And he won, apparently.

And there he is refusing to resign from the EU parliament - does the man have no shame. And, of course, because he is paid in euro (unlike most of us) he has just received a nice little 12% pay rise due to the brexit-induced crash of the pound.

So it really is all about me, me, me as far as Farage is concerned.

[Jack Knave]

No, The Farage doctrine remains. As he said ''a 52-48 split is unfinished business leading to a second referendum''.

Oh, Vlad, get a brain. As I have already said you lot can have your referendum in 10 years time, OK? This is what Farage meant.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

But when a GE result comes through the losers don't start crying and saying I don't like that result lets just ignore it and do what I want do they. They accept it and work within the bounds of that election, and so should the Remainers. They should respect the result and let it stand and be worked though.

You are forgetting the Farage doctrine which says 52 to 48 is unfinished business.

The referendum result is already history and probably out of date.
There is a case to carry it through and have the opprobrium of it's affects as a matter of regret for those who voted Brexit and the righteous vilification of the position of those who still hold it.(You will have to own this Jack)

It is now up to Government to minimise it's negative effects and of course if Article 50 is ever enacted there should at least be ratification by parliament of the goals and maybe a second referendum.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Oh, Vlad, get a brain. As I have already said you lot can have your referendum in 10 years time, OK? This is what Farage meant.

Whether you have one is the question Jack.
10 years is how soon article 50 will be enacted.

[ProfessorDavey]

But when a GE result comes through the losers don't start crying and saying I don't like that result lets just ignore it and do what I want do they. They accept it and work within the bounds of that election, and so should the Remainers. They should respect the result and let it stand and be worked though.

No if you lose a general election the very next day you start to make the arguments to win the next one, which will at the very most be only 5 years away.

So you have an opportunity to reverse the decision a few years down the line. So using your general election analogy, therefore, I assume you are comfortable that there should be a second referendum within 5 year that should be able to reverse any brexit decision. Ok with you?

[Jack Knave]

No he's actually going on about Us,Us,Us the 48 percent plus those who have come to realise it is a shit idea.

However if Mrs Leadsom does succeed Brexiters who wanted to give the establishment a bloody nose will be blessed with the....er....... establishment.

No he was referring to his personal situation.

Short sighted again, Vlad. You can vote them out at the next GE, unlike the Commission and many other EU institutions.

[ProfessorDavey]

They should respect the result and let it stand and be worked though.

But JK, you have made it very clear that you wouldn't accept a Norway style EEA post brexit settlement (which would be entirely consistent with the vote to leave). So you seem a little lacking in consistency.

Why would it be OK for you not to accept the decision if that results in Norway style EEA (cos you don't like it) but not for us.

[wigginhall]

The general election analogy is very odd, since straight after an election, opposition parties try to make life as difficult as possible for the government, and in fact, try to bring them down.   If this didn't exist, you would have a one party state.   I don't know if anybody is actually saying officially that Brexit can be reversed in 5 years, it sounds unlikely to me, so it is much more irrevocable than an election, and the Brexit people seem to saying that people should not object and should not oppose it!

[ProfessorDavey]

You can vote them out at the next GE, unlike the Commission and many other EU institutions.

Category error.

The EU commission is the equivalent of our civil service - can you vote them out at a general election - nope.

The European parliament and council of ministers are the two bodies that actually make decisions and both have an electoral mandate - the former directly elected, the second being from the directly elected government.

The equivalent decision making bodied in the UK are the House of Commons and the House of Lords, which also, of course both have an electoral mandate ... ooops, hmm, nope that's not right is is. If your confer is democracy put your own house in order first JK.

[ProfessorDavey]

... and the Brexit people seem to saying that people should not object and should not oppose it!

But it is actually worse than that.

Don't forget that JK won't accept a Norway style EEA settlement post brexit, so it would appear that remainers have to accept whatever outcome ensues post brexit, but the brexiters are allowed not to accept a post brexit settlement that wasn't their preferred flavour.

[Jack Knave]

No if you lose a general election the very next day you start to make the arguments to win the next one, which will at the very most be only 5 years away.

So you have an opportunity to reverse the decision a few years down the line. So using your general election analogy, therefore, I assume you are comfortable that there should be a second referendum within 5 year that should be able to reverse any brexit decision. Ok with you?

If you lot want to plead for one in 5 years time be my quest.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

If you lot want to plead for one in 5 years time be my quest.

They won't have enacted the first one Jack Ha Ha Ha.

[Jack Knave]

But JK, you have made it very clear that you wouldn't accept a Norway style EEA post brexit settlement (which would be entirely consistent with the vote to leave). So you seem a little lacking in consistency.

Why would it be OK for you not to accept the decision if that results in Norway style EEA (cos you don't like it) but not for us.

Because the EEA option was never aired by the Leave lot as a major aspect of the campaign. You mention EEA to most leave voters at the time and they would have responded, "The EE what?" Mention the immigration issues and they would all know about that even if they had other reasons for voting leave. So to suggest the EEA option now is not valid and disingenuous, as it was never a major aspect of the campaign to the masses.

[ProfessorDavey]

Because the EEA option was never aired by the Leave lot as a major aspect of the campaign. You mention EEA to most leave voters at the time and they would have responded, "The EE what?" Mention the immigration issues and they would all know about that even if they had other reasons for voting leave. So to suggest the EEA option now is not valid and disingenuous, as it was never a major aspect of the campaign to the masses.

Ah so there isn't a mandate for any specific flavour of brexit then JK, because none were on the ballot paper.

I agree and that is why once there is a negotiated and agreed deal, be it EEA or Leadsom-style WTO without access to the free market, that specific deal needs to receive a mandated from the electorate in a second referendum. If it does we leave - if at that time people actually prefer remaining in the EU than the actual deal on offer for brexit, then we should remain.

Why is that a problem to you.

[wigginhall]

It is a fascinating difference, that after an election, we expect the losers to immediately start opposing the government, in every way they can.   In fact, this is a cornerstone of democracy.   But in relation to Brexit, some Brexiteers are saying, don't whinge, just get on with life, as if here, democracy is frozen now, you are not supposed to object or organize against it.   Which is more democratic?

[Jack Knave]

Category error.

The EU commission is the equivalent of our civil service - can you vote them out at a general election - nope.

The European parliament and council of ministers are the two bodies that actually make decisions and both have an electoral mandate - the former directly elected, the second being from the directly elected government.

The equivalent decision making bodied in the UK are the House of Commons and the House of Lords, which also, of course both have an electoral mandate ... ooops, hmm, nope that's not right is is. If your confer is democracy put your own house in order first JK.

Oh, Davey, we've been through all this before and you're talking bollocks. Do your homework like a good scientist.

[ProfessorDavey]

If you lot want to plead for one in 5 years time be my quest.

No need to plead. We simply need a mandate for a real post brexit settlement - so that people are voting for something, not just against something.

Given your views here, I suspect that were there to be a referendum on EEA vs EU you'd spoil your ballot paper.

Likewise the 60%+ of brexit voters for whom immigration wasn't their biggest factor (according the the Ashcroft exit survey of 12,000 voters) might prefer to vote to remain if that is stacked up against a brexit deal which casts us out of the single market.