Red on Red, Labour implode

[Jack Knave]

They won't have enacted the first one Jack Ha Ha Ha.

Have you read article 50?

[ProfessorDavey]

Oh, Davey, we've been through all this before and you're talking bollocks. Do your homework like a good scientist.

Don't like the truth do you.

Decisions in the EU are taken by the Council of Ministers and the European Parliament. Decisions in the UK are taken by the House of Commons and the House of Lords.

So can you name me one piece of EU legislation that has been passed by the commission, rather than the council and parliament.

[Jack Knave]

Don't like the truth do you.

Decisions in the EU are taken by the Council of Ministers and the European Parliament. Decisions in the UK are taken by the House of Commons and the House of Lords.

So can you name me one piece of EU legislation that has been passed by the commission, rather than the council and parliament.

The commission are the executives and they get there guidance from the treaties. There is only one policy and that is what is set out in the treaties. The treaties are the EU's bible. Very much like the Soviet Union.

[ProfessorDavey]

The commission are the executives and they get there guidance from the treaties. There is only one policy and that is what is set out in the treaties. The treaties are the EU's bible. Very much like the Soviet Union.

Come on JK I asked a direct question. Tell me a piece of EU legislation that has been passed by the commission, rather than the council and parliament.

[Jack Knave]

Come on JK I asked a direct question. Tell me a piece of EU legislation that has been passed by the commission, rather than the council and parliament.

They set the agenda. They are the ones with the power.

If you are told to shovel pig shit even though you are the one who does it is your boss who has the power and sets the agenda and task, not you. You are just the lackey!!!

[ProfessorDavey]

There is only one policy and that is what is set out in the treaties.

And the treaties were passed by the commission right? Wrong they were ratified by the european parliament and by the individual governments/parliaments of the member states through the auspices of the council of ministers.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Have you read article 50?

I was thinking of leaving it for three or four years...............Like the Prime Minister.

[Jack Knave]

And the treaties were passed by the commission right? Wrong they were ratified by the european parliament and by the individual governments/parliaments of the member states.

It is who writes and shapes them that counts not the zombies who rubber stamp it. You are thick!!!

Who are the controlling factors in your scientific world. The scientist who works in the lab or the funding agencies that dictate to you what they want researched?

[ProfessorDavey]

It is who writes and shapes them that counts not the zombies who rubber stamp it. You are thick!!!

Who do you think drafts legislation in the UK - multiple choice question:

A. A government minister
B. All the MPs getting together in a room
C. The civil service

Answer C

[ProfessorDavey]

Who are the controlling factors in your scientific world. The scientist who works in the lab or the funding agencies that dictate to you what they want researched?

Oh really, really bad example for you.

The answer is the scientists in the lab because the whole notion of allocation of research funds is on the basis of peer assessment. So grant applications are reviewed by peers - i.e. other 'scientist who work in the lab' and then the final decisions on funding are taken by panels that are also made up of peers - i.e. other 'scientist who work in the lab'.

And the earlier decisions on funding priorities are also driven by peer consultation and assessment, - i.e. other 'scientist who work in the lab'.

[Jack Knave]

Who do you think drafts legislation in the UK - multiple choice question:

A. A government minister
B. All the MPs getting together in a room
C. The civil service

Answer C

The government shapes the vision. They set the parameters and the direction.

[Jack Knave]

Oh really, really bad example for you.

The answer is the scientists in the lab because the whole notion of allocation of research funds is on the basis of peer assessment. So grant applications are reviewed by peers - i.e. other 'scientist who work in the lab' and then the final decisions on funding are taken by panels that are also made up of peers - i.e. other 'scientist who work in the lab'.

And the earlier decisions on funding priorities are also driven by peer consultation and assessment, - i.e. other 'scientist who work in the lab'.

Everything there is 'in the lab' but that's bollocks. You are a real scientist aren't you? Government bodies etc. do it; EU, UN etc. etc. What you say might be for small projects where once the funding has been obtained some of it is funnelled into related areas.

[ProfessorDavey]

The government shapes the vision. They set the parameters and the direction.

As they do in the EU - the direction and powers of the EU are vested in the individual member states - you do understand that the members of the EU commission are proposed by the elected governments of each state. So in a manner they are no less or more 'elected' that are the ministers in a UK government that are appointed by the PM. They certainly have a greater link to the electorate than the top civil servants who have no link to the electorate at all (I'm not making a point about whether that is good or bad, merely stating facts).

[ProfessorDavey]

Everything there is 'in the lab' but that's bollocks. You are a real scientist aren't you? Government bodies etc. do it; EU, UN etc. etc. What you say might be for small projects where once the funding has been obtained some of it is funnelled into related areas.

Nonsense - go look up the Haldane principle and come back when you have a clue what you are talking about.

Jus this week I was at a meeting where I, and other fellow researchers, were shaping the priorities for a new funding stream worth about £1.5 billion over the next 5 years. The agenda is set by scientists and organisations that are at arms length from government.

[Jack Knave]

As they do in the EU - the direction and powers of the EU are vested in the individual member states - you do understand that the members of the EU commission are proposed by the elected governments of each state. So in a manner they are no less or more 'elected' that are the ministers in a UK government that are appointed by the PM. They certainly have a greater link to the electorate than the top civil servants who have no link to the electorate at all (I'm not making a point about whether that is good or bad, merely stating facts).

And who pays their salaries? You can't have two masters.

We have no British representatives in the EU, and in fact our top politicians are not even 'British'. They are all working for the EU's Ever-Closer-Union project.

[ProfessorDavey]

We have no British representatives in the EU, and in fact our top politicians are not even 'British'. They are all working for the EU's Ever-Closer-Union project.

What planet are you on.

There are 73 British MEPs (including your beloved Farage).

And there is a commissioner from each country including the UK. So currently that is Lord Hill (yup I'd agree that he isn't particularly well know, but that's Cameron's fault as he appointed him. Previous ones are:

Catherine Ashton
Peter Mandelson
Chris Patten
Neil Kinnock
Leon Britton

Now you may or may not agree with their politics but you can hardly accuse most of those people as being unknown faceless bureaucrats, can you.

[Udayana]

Who do you think drafts legislation in the UK - multiple choice question:

A. A government minister
B. All the MPs getting together in a room
C. The civil service

Answer C

There is a significant difference in that in the normal EU legislative process only the Commission can propose new legislature. In our process either house can propose a new bill, eventually to be approved by both. In the EU the Commission proposes and drafts legislature which can then be amended and/or rejected or approved by the Council or EP.

Of-course it is possible for the Council, Parliament or European Council or ordinary citizens (and businesses) to ask the Commission to draft legislation but this usually involves negotiating with, or otherwise persuading the Commission to do so.

imo. this is one of issues that needs reform.

[ProfessorDavey]

There is a significant difference in that in the normal EU legislative process only the Commission can propose new legislature. In our process either house can propose a new bill, eventually to be approved by both. In the EU the Commission proposes and drafts legislature which can then be amended and/or rejected or approved by the Council or EP.

Of-course it is possible for the Council, Parliament or European Council or ordinary citizens (and businesses) to ask the Commission to draft legislation but this usually involves negotiating with, or otherwise persuading the Commission to do so.

imo. this is one of issues that needs reform.

But ultimately the commission are responsible to the individual member states, who lets not forget, appoint the commission in the first place. So although it may be technically correct that the commission proposes new legislations they do so on the basis of the agenda of the individual member states via the council.

There is, of course, no point in the commission proposing something that isn't going to be acceptable to the council of ministers nor the parliament as it won't be approved.

[Udayana]

Yes, that's certainly true.

The EU is ultimately democratically responsible to us, but there is a level of indirectness that leads to an inflexibility and lack of responsiveness that is the cause of much of the discontent with it.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Jackie boy,

Actual the one responsible for all this is Cameron, a Remainer, who has buggered off. It was his job to provide contingency plans for a Brexit and to have the referendum organised in a proper way, not his usual cack handed Bullington bollocks approach to government.

Something else we agree on, but that is history and Cameron is also history, what is the country doing just now, watching, watching as the Tories discuss who will be the next Prime Minister, the party who couldn't give a flying F*** about this country, it seems the country wants more of the same, some people are asking should Blair be tried for war crimes, I think the whole Tory party should be tried for crimes against the United Kingdom.

Gonnagle.

[SweetPea]

..... some people are asking should Blair be tried for war crimes, I think the whole Tory party should be tried for crimes against the United Kingdom.

Gonnagle.

As should most of the world governments for crimes against 'the people'.

[Brownie]

I agree with that SP but it won't happen.  If it did happen a few times, maybe people in government would not be so quick (if not eager) to go to war.

Question Time was very interesting last night, this subject was  quite a lot of insight.  A politician who was a serving soldier was on the panel and what he said about Iraq hit home.  However, hindsight is all very well and politicians are no different to anyone else except for having greater power and responsibility;  they are damned if they do and damned if they don't.

Jack, you said: "... our top politicians are not even 'British'. "

Who?  Cameron?  May (who was a Brexiter)?  Our London Mayor is 'British' as he was born here.   

[Jack Knave]

What planet are you on.

There are 73 British MEPs (including your beloved Farage).

And there is a commissioner from each country including the UK. So currently that is Lord Hill (yup I'd agree that he isn't particularly well know, but that's Cameron's fault as he appointed him. Previous ones are:

Catherine Ashton
Peter Mandelson
Chris Patten
Neil Kinnock
Leon Britton

Now you may or may not agree with their politics but you can hardly accuse most of those people as being unknown faceless bureaucrats, can you.

Read my post again and use that little scientific brain of yours to work out that your reply responded to or addressed nothing I said.

[Hope]

Dear Jackie boy,

Something else we agree on, but that is history and Cameron is also history, what is the country doing just now, watching, watching as the Tories discuss who will be the next Prime Minister, the party who couldn't give a flying F*** about this country, it seems the country wants more of the same, some people are asking should Blair be tried for war crimes, I think the whole Tory party should be tried for crimes against the United Kingdom.

Gonnagle.

And what would the evidence be that would be put forward to support this charge, Gonners?  I would tend to suggest that Blair would be more likely to be found guilty of what he is accused of than Cameron and his 'cronies' of theirs.

[Hope]

Read my post again and use that little scientific brain of yours to work out that your reply responded to or addressed nothing I said.

I've read both your original post and PD's response to it, Jack.  I would, as an English teacher, say that what PD wrote both responded to and addressed everything you said.

I'm beginning to wonder whether your real name is Andrea L. ...