Red on Red, Labour implode

[Jack Knave]

Yes, that's certainly true.

The EU is ultimately democratically responsible to us, but there is a level of indirectness that leads to an inflexibility and lack of responsiveness that is the cause of much of the discontent with it.

And the cause of all this is the authoritarian agenda set out right from the start in the Treaty of Rome and the ideas of those times. So in fact there is no real choice for the member governments etc. because their hands are tied. This is why Gisela Stuart is anti-EU as she was asked by Blair to take part in the talks for the Constitution and she found them totally unyielding and fiercely dogmatic in their attitudes. So what we have is a 1957 doctrine that drives on like some aimless madman that is utterly unaware or responsive to the changing times and circumstances of the day. Until now, though, when they are starting to wake up from their trance, nearly 60 years down the line when it is far too late for them to adapt and change course in time The shit hit the fan decades ago and they are only now sensing that there is some essence of an odd and odious aroma that is niggling them.

[Jack Knave]

I agree with that SP but it won't happen.  If it did happen a few times, maybe people in government would not be so quick (if not eager) to go to war.

Question Time was very interesting last night, this subject was  quite a lot of insight.  A politician who was a serving soldier was on the panel and what he said about Iraq hit home.  However, hindsight is all very well and politicians are no different to anyone else except for having greater power and responsibility;  they are damned if they do and damned if they don't.

Jack, you said: "... our top politicians are not even 'British'. "

Who?  Cameron?  May (who was a Brexiter)?  Our London Mayor is 'British' as he was born here.

Actually I meant for the most part the ministers and bureaucrats etc. in the EU, particularly in the commission etc. who work behind the scenes. This being so because they are paid by Brussels and you can't have two masters. 

[Jack Knave]

I've read both your original post and PD's response to it, Jack.  I would, as an English teacher, say that what PD wrote both responded to and addressed everything you said.

I'm beginning to wonder whether your real name is Andrea L. ... 

I'm not a Christian. But my surname might be Heavisomwat.

You might have noticed he left out some of my post, the most poignant part which gave it its saliency and meaning.

[Udayana]

And the cause of all this is the authoritarian agenda set out right from the start in the Treaty of Rome and the ideas of those times. So in fact there is no real choice for the member governments etc. because their hands are tied. This is why Gisela Stuart is anti-EU as she was asked by Blair to take part in the talks for the Constitution and she found them totally unyielding and fiercely dogmatic in their attitudes. So what we have is a 1957 doctrine that drives on like some aimless madman that is utterly unaware or responsive to the changing times and circumstances of the day. Until now, though, when they are starting to wake up from their trance, nearly 60 years down the line when it is far too late for them to adapt and change course in time The shit hit the fan decades ago and they are only now sensing that there is some essence of an odd and odious aroma that is niggling them.

Some truth in that, the problems are complex but have been well understood within the Commission in the past. Too many of the people able to affect change do too well from the status quo.

[Brownie]

If they didn't, they'd be in dire straits  .

[Hope]

Don't know whether there are any Labour Party members here, but if there are (or there are folk with the knowledge) - according to Labour Party rules, does Corbyn, as sitting leader, get an automatic entry into any contest, or does he still require the standard 50 MP names supporting his application to be included on the ballot paper?  There appears to be a disagreement even within the party over this.

On a related, but different matter, if the party was to end up splitting - as even Kevin McGuire said could happen when interviewed on this morning's BBC Breakfast - into say centre left and hard left, how many of the current crop of MPs would be in each camp (and, yes, I am aware that that dividing line could be somewhat porous).

[ProfessorDavey]

Don't know whether there are any Labour Party members here, but if there are (or there are folk with the knowledge) - according to Labour Party rules, does Corbyn, as sitting leader, get an automatic entry into any contest, or does he still require the standard 50 MP names supporting his application to be included on the ballot paper?  There appears to be a disagreement even within the party over this.

That's right - it is unclear in the wording whether a sitting leader gets on the ballot paper automatically. This will probably need to be settled by the NEC (which I think has a pro-Corbyn bias) or even the courts.

[Hope]

That's right - it is unclear in the wording whether a sitting leader gets on the ballot paper automatically. This will probably need to be settled by the NEC (which I think has a pro-Corbyn bias) or even the courts.

Thanks for that, PD.  I wasn't sure whether the wording was unclear or just that the two sides where trying to make them mean one or the other.

[Hope]

You might have noticed he left out some of my post, the most poignant part which gave it its saliency and meaning.

One can leave out part of a post when quoting yet still respond to it in one's response.  From reading your original post and PD's response, he did just that.  After all, the quoting of a post is really only to indicate which post one is responding to; only if it has a number of disparate points which one wants to address specifically, is it necessary to quote in full (or sectionally).

[ProfessorDavey]

And who pays their salaries? You can't have two masters.

Given that you seem to be incensed that I hadn't replied to that part of your post, I shall.

Who pays the salaries of the British representatives in the European parliament and on the commission? Well the UK tax payer does, in exactly the same way as they do for Westminster representatives. Where do you think the money comes from to pay them, JK. Do you think it is magically conjured out of thin air. Nope the costs of the EU are paid for by tax raised at member state level.

Unless I am grossly mistaken the EU isn't a tax raising body.

[Gonnagle]

Dear World,

Labour imploding! I listened to a man this morning on the Andrew Marr programme and he is definitely not the one doing any kind of imploding.

I listened to a man totally relaxed and at ease answering Marr's rapid questions, sometimes looking bemused that Marr was repeating the same question he had just answered.

One telling question that gave me hope was when Marr asked him about all the stress he was under, his reply was, what stress! he then went on to tell Marr what real stress is, poverty, eviction from your home and putting food on the table to feed your kids, for me, this is a man totally in touch with reality, totally wedded to the fact that this country needs investment and not more austerity.

I would definitely vote for this man, a man who actually wants debate, a man who knows the true value of communication, the rest of the Labour party might be imploding but he is definitely not, his detractors should shut up, get behind this man, he is a breathe of fresh air in all this political back stabbing nonsense.

Gonnagle.

[Udayana]

Yes Gonnagle. He came across very well in the interview. However, he has had plenty of opportunities to get the other MPs to support him, and to actually lead - but has been unsuccessful.

Where is he going wrong? Negotiation? Compromise? Delegation? Just not taking advice about tactics?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Dear World,

Labour imploding! I listened to a man this morning on the Andrew Marr programme and he is definitely not the one doing any kind of imploding.

I listened to a man totally relaxed and at ease answering Marr's rapid questions, sometimes looking bemused that Marr was repeating the same question he had just answered.

One telling question that gave me hope was when Marr asked him about all the stress he was under, his reply was, what stress! he then went on to tell Marr what real stress is, poverty, eviction from your home and putting food on the table to feed your kids, for me, this is a man totally in touch with reality, totally wedded to the fact that this country needs investment and not more austerity.

I would definitely vote for this man, a man who actually wants debate, a man who knows the true value of communication, the rest of the Labour party might be imploding but he is definitely not, his detractors should shut up, get behind this man, he is a breathe of fresh air in all this political back stabbing nonsense.

Gonnagle.

Yes He looked like a leader.
What the PLP did a couple of weeks ago was unmitigatingly stupid.
Angela Eagle doesn't inspire confidence.

However, the most successful tack for any potential PM is ''safest pair of hands'' or to actually have a plan.

[jakswan]

Yes Gonnagle. He came across very well in the interview. However, he has had plenty of opportunities to get the other MPs to support him, and to actually lead - but has been unsuccessful.

Where is he going wrong? Negotiation? Compromise? Delegation? Just not taking advice about tactics?

He's a nice guy but utterly inept at being a leader according to other MPs, he is a leader who can't lead. I admire his conviction though, if he wins expect momentum to take out the MPs and win the labour party for the hard left.

If Davey is anything to go by the centrists foot soldiers have already given up.

[jakswan]

Yes He looked like a leader.
What the PLP did a couple of weeks ago was unmitigatingly stupid.
Angela Eagle doesn't inspire confidence.

He comes across to me as a romantic idealist, I have voted for all political parties and a floater. If labour are to win they have to convince the floaters, I would never vote labour if he is leader, the PLP know I'm not alone.

They would be better off going for UDI rather than suffering an embarrassing defeat.

[ProfessorDavey]

He's a nice guy but utterly inept at being a leader according to other MPs, he is a leader who can't lead. I admire his conviction though, if he wins expect momentum to take out the MPs and win the labour party for the hard left.

If Davey is anything to go by the centrists foot soldiers have already given up.

I don't think you can use me to generalise. Although I have left, I am not what one would call a tribal, from the cradle Labour supporter, I only joined in the mid 90s.

There are plenty of my friends who are equally despairing about Corbyn who remain members and actually still are the driving force of my local party. Indeed one of their major gripes is that although they have a bunch of new members who have joined due to Corbyn, they don't actually do anything. The canvassing, the leafleting, the standing in local elections, the putting up stakes, the knocking up for GOTV is still don't by the same people who are largely moderates.

Now not all constituency parties will be like that, but I suspect that much of the actual activity in the party is still being done by people who were enthused by and campaigned for Blair.

So it is a bit more complicated, you need to consider not just members, but activists (a sub-set of members) and also potential voters who are a massively greater pool than the membership.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Udayana,

Negotiation? Compromise? Delegation?

Compromise, when the man won the leadership of his party, his cabinet was full of his detractors, he did not staff it with yes men, the only compromise I see from his detractors is that he goes.

Delegation, once again the people he put in place were not 100% behind him, but I think he gave the jobs to people who he thought could do the job, no matter what they thought about him personally.

Negotiation, this is his strong point, he see's a real need for communication, he is the one willing to listen, he is not the one who has caused this rift, especially at a time when the Labour party has to show solidarity.

And I have just listened to Andrew Neil interviewing Angela Eagle, oh dear! what a woefully depressing woman, add to that, she voted for and backed Blair in is pals act with America.

Jeremy Corbyn is the man to lead the Labour party, whether he is the man to be our next Prime Minister, only time will tell, but we need different, he is certainly different, a quiet man with a passion, not a sound bite man, not a chinless wonder like our retreating/ resigning hall of mirrors Prime Minister we have now.

Gonnagle.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

He comes across to me as a romantic idealist, I have voted for all political parties and a floater. If labour are to win they have to convince the floaters, I would never vote labour if he is leader, the PLP know I'm not alone.

They would be better off going for UDI rather than suffering an embarrassing defeat.

He has the worse deal. He is leader of the opposition at a point in the political cycle when the opposition is naturally at the lowest ebb. He is a remainer. Much of the traditional vote prefer self immolation, The PLP in panic did something unmitigatedly stupid and destroyed the party....They did not even have an alternative. That is what crashed the party and even now the best they can put up is Angela Eagle. Corbyn in my view has done the decent thing and stood first on behalf of an increasing support.

May is not going to run a general election. Leadsom certainly won't.
Corbyn was right to hang on attract vast numbers to the party and handover to a better fit candidate in time for 2020.

He was also right not to go because certain elements in the BBC including the suspected manipulator of politics Kuensberg thought it might just round off news coverage on a certain day.

Such a circumcision of the BBC's political influence is of course very socio politically significant.

[jakswan]

He has the worse deal. He is leader of the opposition at a point in the political cycle when the opposition is naturally at the lowest ebb. He is a remainer. Much of the traditional vote prefer self immolation, The PLP in panic did something unmitigatedly stupid and destroyed the party....They did not even have an alternative. That is what crashed the party and even now the best they can put up is Angela Eagle. Corbyn in my view has done the decent thing and stood first on behalf of an increasing support.

May is not going to run a general election. Leadsom certainly won't.
Corbyn was right to hang on attract vast numbers to the party and handover to a better fit candidate in time for 2020.

He was also right not to go because certain elements in the BBC including the suspected manipulator of politics Kuensberg thought it might just round off news coverage on a certain day.

Such a circumcision of the BBC's political influence is of course very socio politically significant.

Corbyn by not resigning is as much to blame for the crisis as the PLP, both sides think they are doing the right thing.

[jakswan]

I don't think you can use me to generalise. Although I have left, I am not what one would call a tribal, from the cradle Labour supporter, I only joined in the mid 90s.

There are plenty of my friends who are equally despairing about Corbyn who remain members and actually still are the driving force of my local party. Indeed one of their major gripes is that although they have a bunch of new members who have joined due to Corbyn, they don't actually do anything. The canvassing, the leafleting, the standing in local elections, the putting up stakes, the knocking up for GOTV is still don't by the same people who are largely moderates.

Now not all constituency parties will be like that, but I suspect that much of the actual activity in the party is still being done by people who were enthused by and campaigned for Blair.

So it is a bit more complicated, you need to consider not just members, but activists (a sub-set of members) and also potential voters who are a massively greater pool than the membership.

Won't the voters just cease to be voters?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Corbyn by not resigning is as much to blame for the crisis as the PLP, both sides think they are doing the right thing.

No since Jeremy Corbyn's leadership was status quo and they didn't have a leader in mind.
Corbyn's resignation would have been media timed. He has taught them that their agenda and timetable is not automatically what watches are set by.

That is a nasty blow to the media.

Any repurcussions on that?........Yes, Mrs May did not face the opprobrium of a press which had been pro brexit neither did Leadsom automatically get support from the press and Keunsberg and Pienaar have not had such a high profile.

[john]

The things that worry me about Jeremy Corbin are;

Until now he has never held any post at all, so lacks experience and a track record to judge him by.

Over the last few months he has had lots of meetings with sycophantic supporters but none at all with other groups whose support he will need; Business leaders, Education heads, NHS executives, Foreign leaders, etc. How can he hope to come up with policies that will work if he is unwilling or unable to consult and carry with him these other important aspects of what makes the country tick?

Has he ever actually (let alone recently) had a job. I mean one which involves working with other people and actually getting something done, even if it is just making money on the stock exchange.

It appears to me the man appears to lack any of the tools/connection necessary to be successful in high office.

It is all very well to have lofty and laudable visions but you have to demonstrate an ability to make them work. He clearly cannot because he can't even carry his fellow Labour polititians along his dream path.

[wigginhall]

He has the worse deal. He is leader of the opposition at a point in the political cycle when the opposition is naturally at the lowest ebb. He is a remainer. Much of the traditional vote prefer self immolation, The PLP in panic did something unmitigatedly stupid and destroyed the party....They did not even have an alternative. That is what crashed the party and even now the best they can put up is Angela Eagle. Corbyn in my view has done the decent thing and stood first on behalf of an increasing support.

May is not going to run a general election. Leadsom certainly won't.
Corbyn was right to hang on attract vast numbers to the party and handover to a better fit candidate in time for 2020.

He was also right not to go because certain elements in the BBC including the suspected manipulator of politics Kuensberg thought it might just round off news coverage on a certain day.

Such a circumcision of the BBC's political influence is of course very socio politically significant.

I think you are right about the electoral cycle; the losing party is often labelled unelectable for two or three terms, because they are, and they tend to have a nervous breakdown, see the Tories under IDS.   I suppose Eagle is a kind of stalking horse, the real would-be leaders are presumably lying low, sniffing the breeze.   

[Hope]

He is a remainer.

If you believe that, you are seriuosly deluded.  Although he agreed to toe the Labour Party line, he has always been a Eurosceptic - at best.

He was also right not to go because certain elements in the BBC including the suspected manipulator of politics Kuensberg thought it might just round off news coverage on a certain day.

Evidence, please.

Such a circumcision of the BBC's political influence is of course very socio politically significant.

It would be, if the BBC had as much influence as several other media outlets, Vlad.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

If you believe that, you are seriuosly deluded.  Although he agreed to toe the Labour Party line, he has always been a Eurosceptic - at best.
Evidence, please.
It would be, if the BBC had as much influence as several other media outlets, Vlad.

1: He supported remain and tells us he voted remain
2: Corbyn cannot be trusted to tell the truth but Keunsberg can be trusted not to try and influence events and show impartiality......Who is seriously deluded Hope?
3: Eventually Brexit coverage and Corbyn coverage will not come out as the Corporations finest hour.