Red on Red, Labour implode

[Bubbles]

And you don't think the fact that the British people (well,the English people) have done something unutterably stupid is enough to be angry about?

I have a job that may go away if the economy tanks. I have young teenage relatives whose vista of opportunities have suddenly narrowed. When I go to Europe, which I do frequently, I now have to explain that I'm not a small minded Little Englander and neither are nearly half of my fellow countrymen.

Why isn't that enough to be angry about?

The English people just wanted to take control back from Brussels.

Commercial fishermen for example felt the EU has done enormous harm to our fishing stocks and an awful lot of fishermen voted leave for that reason.

The people who voted leave seem to want to be able to make our own trade deals with countries outside the EU.

For a while these choices will not be good for the UK and I'm sure we will struggle.

Businesses will need to adapt and find new opportunities.

But I think the leave supporters think the end result will at least be in the right direction.

One of my sons who is in his twenties is not impressed with us leaving the EU either, he tells me we will still have to abide by many of the rules to trade with the EU or to have a Norway type deal but have no say in its make up at all.

It is going to complicate things.

I'm not angry at leaving the EU, probably because my choice floated for a while between the leave and remain vote.

I could see perhaps we would have different opportunities under leave, and more choices in how we do things. The rest of my family wouldn't have  been bothered if the Uk had the euro, but I'm a bit more traditionalist. I like the pound.

I like the idea of being more self determining, of being free to trade outside the eu on our own terms.

It has nothing to do with being a little Englander really, but about not having to do what is decided in Brussels.

I voted remain in the end because I didn't feel I knew enough about the EU, so it was a vote for the known.
I was unsure about its affect on expats for example, or on people that had moved here from the EU and started up businesses and settled.

It was to much a leap in the dark to get my vote ( I didn't really listen much to either side and still think in retrospect neither knew what would happen)

But now it has happened, I am thinking we need to make the most of the opportunities that arise because of it.

If the economy tanks a lot of us may lose our jobs.

All I can say is, my husband used to have a safe job at the bank and one day he chose to take a big risk by taking redundancy.
I was very concerned as my children were small and we relied on his income.
For a bit I was insecure.  Especially as he had no new job and no income.


Then he applied for another job ( among many he didn't get) with more money and better prospects.

Had he always stayed in the safe job at the bank he would have ended up, because the job changed, working in a call centre.  Even though he had a degree and diploma in computing.

Sometimes you have to take a risk to see the opportunity.

It can go badly wrong, but sometimes even when it goes wrong and you are made redundant it can be the most positive thing that has ever happened to you.

It's comfortable being stuck in a rut, but sometimes it pays to find the opportunities by not going for the safe option.

That's how I see us leaving now.

The EU was the safe rut, we have to find the opportunities created by us leaving it.

Like when my husband became redundant, things might get a bit tough, but we need to look for the opportunities to put us back on track, to being where we want to be.


That's why I'm not cross.

Who knows what opportunities might arise out of us " leaving the rut"

🌹🍷

[ProfessorDavey]

The English people just wanted to take control back from Brussels.

What do you mean by 'The English people' Rose?

Do you mean people who are native English or people living in England. There is a difference.

[ProfessorDavey]

Because it would explain why Jeremy is so cross about it.

Knowing what the P stands for in Jeremy P it is possible that the Brexit vote may actually feel quite threatening to him, not just that he doesn't agree with it.

Especially the implication by some racists in this country that 'foreigners" should go home etc.

Jeremy is so cross about it that I just wondered if he is worried that the whole Brexit thing is a threat to him and his family.

If so, I'd like to reassure him that as far as I'm am concerned he is very welcome here.

I may not have the same insecurity because I am more invisible with a British sounding name.

It occurs to me Jeremy may see the Brexit vote as being a vote against him and his family, and see it as an emerging threat.

Plus he might also relate more to the polish people who have come here and made successful life for themselves and Brexit has created all sorts of uncertainties.

It's important to point out that I am welcoming of Jeremy and his family being here.

It's just he is so angry about it, I feel there is more to it.

The question was asked because I thought it might be more helpful to bring it into the open and then perhaps we can reassure Jeremy and maybe help him if something unpleasant did go off.

Well at least we could talk about things, maybe someone might be able to help.

I could of course be completely wrong, but maybe Brexit and some of the implications of it have caused people with a foreign sounding name to feel a bit insecure.

I think we need to understand that, if it does, because we need to make sure they are ok.

🌹

I may be wrong, and please correct me if I am, but you don't come across in this post as someone who is deeply embedded in communities (professional, geographical and personal) who are very largely remain.

I am - now I freely accept that this means my 'world' is much narrower than the wider UK electorate, but what this does is it gives me a very good understanding of the mindset of 'remain' voters and supporters. And that's why your suggestion that Jeremy must be a migrant because he is angry seems bizarre - as he seems to be simply giving a very similar view to countless colleagues, family and friends I know who are remain, most of whom aren't immigrants but multi generational British.

So amongst my British friends, family and colleagues there is a real sense of anger over what has happened as well as shock, anxiety, confusion and concern.

Interestingly it is largely the Brits who are angry - anger is much less common amongst the many, many people from other countries I know, who are colleagues and friends - they are much more likely to be worried, anxious, saddened and shocked (and in many cases making plans to relocate) - but not angry.

The anger comes from the Brits aimed at other British people and what they have done to the UK.

Oh and I'm happy to provide my background - born in England of English and Scottish parents - both sides of the family have lived in Britain for as far back as we have been able to trace our families (about 150-200 years) and probably much, much longer. Married to a Welsh woman, whose family a few generations back (about 100 years ago) had connections with Ireland.

So I am not a migrant.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Rose,

Just to add, I am not a migrant but Jeremyp is expressing ( a lot better than me ) exactly how I feel about Brexit.

Gonnagle.

[jakswan]

The anger comes from the Brits aimed at other British people and what they have done to the UK.

Anger at democracy, if I were you I'd think about changing peoples minds by coming up with better arguments. Might be an idea to get behind Owen Smith the Labour Party leader candidate.

This topic was about that once.

[Udayana]

I think I've come to the conclusion that none of this was about rational argument. It was always about letting out repressed racism and anger against established hierarchies and elites.

There have been previous periods of Europeans rising up against their own leaders, burning down their cities and destroying the sources of their own success  and prosperity.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late_Bronze_Age_collapse

[Harrowby Hall]

We trade with the US, what political rules do they impose on us say with our benefit system, or gun laws, or pollution levels or carbon/climate change policy?

You haven't thought this through, have you!

The only game involving the USA will be TTIP. The USA will not bother with concern about the sensibilities of a small economy like that of the UK. The EU has been successfully holding out against the USA's demands for (eg) access by insurance companies into the health systems of EU countries. Do you think that the UK - by itself - could be anywhere as successful?

TTIP Lite will result in the UK becoming the Argentina of Europe and the NHS will be gone. They didn't paint THAT on the side of the Brexit bus.

[ProfessorDavey]

Anger at democracy,

A flawed democratic process in which we have lurched into the most significant change for decades with no plan as to what that looks like, in part down to downright lies perpetrated by the leave campaign. And where the future of our country (65 million people) over decades has been decided by just 17 million (representing just 25% of the population and just 37% of the electorate).

And where it is pretty clear that had the referendum been run again just a week later the result would have been different due to the 'yeh - I'll vote leave as a protest, but it won't happen' attitude.

To embark on a change of this magnitude and to make that a democratic exercise you need to be convinced that a decision for change is the clear and settled view of the people living in the UK. The referendum result cannot possibly be construed as the clear and settled view of the people living in the UK.

[ProfessorDavey]

Anger at democracy ...

No anger at the outcome, although the process was pretty flawed too.

Just because there is a democratic process doesn't mean that people aren't allowed to be angry at the outcome. If parliament votes for Trident renewal today (in a clearly democratic process) does that mean that no-one will be angry at that decision - no, and nor should that be the case.

Democracy is a continuous ongoing process, not a one off point (although we have elections, but we always accept that we will have another election down the line where we can change our minds) - so it is perfectly reasonable to be angry - indeed I am angry, in part, on behalf of people whose futures will be most affected by the decision, but due to their age were unable to vote, including my 17 and 15 year old sons (and my 9 year old daughter, although she unlike the boys didn't have a view).

[wigginhall]

I think I've come to the conclusion that none of this was about rational argument. It was always about letting out repressed racism and anger against established hierarchies and elites.

There have been previous periods of Europeans rising up against their own leaders, burning down their cities and destroying the sources of their own success  and prosperity.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late_Bronze_Age_collapse

There's also the view that part of the Brexit vote in deprived areas was a vote against austerity.   I don't know how you would actually demonstrate this, I suppose through asking people.   It would be ironic if Osborne's austerity measures partly led to Brexit, although I suppose in such areas there is a long history of deprivation, deindustrialization, and so on, and also feeling neglected by all political parties.  Whether this will change is debatable, but May seemed to be moving leftwards in reply.   

[Nearly Sane]

Brexit and the death penalty



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-36803544

[jakswan]

A flawed democratic process in which we have lurched into the most significant change for decades with no plan as to what that looks like, in part down to downright lies perpetrated by the leave campaign. And where the future of our country (65 million people) over decades has been decided by just 17 million (representing just 25% of the population and just 37% of the electorate).

And where it is pretty clear that had the referendum been run again just a week later the result would have been different due to the 'yeh - I'll vote leave as a protest, but it won't happen' attitude.

To embark on a change of this magnitude and to make that a democratic exercise you need to be convinced that a decision for change is the clear and settled view of the people living in the UK. The referendum result cannot possibly be construed as the clear and settled view of the people living in the UK.

Is this Davey's rules for governing? We voted on a referendum that was in the manifesto of an elected government which introduced an Act which in turn had to go through the elected parliament.

Those are the actual real world rules suggest you start campaigning for Owen Smith because he is with you on this.

[jakswan]

I think I've come to the conclusion that none of this was about rational argument. It was always about letting out repressed racism and anger against established hierarchies and elites.

There have been previous periods of Europeans rising up against their own leaders, burning down their cities and destroying the sources of their own success  and prosperity.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late_Bronze_Age_collapse

I don't know why other people voted leave but for me it had nothing to do with race.

[jakswan]

No anger at the outcome, although the process was pretty flawed too.

Just because there is a democratic process doesn't mean that people aren't allowed to be angry at the outcome. If parliament votes for Trident renewal today (in a clearly democratic process) does that mean that no-one will be angry at that decision - no, and nor should that be the case.

Democracy is a continuous ongoing process, not a one off point (although we have elections, but we always accept that we will have another election down the line where we can change our minds) - so it is perfectly reasonable to be angry - indeed I am angry, in part, on behalf of people whose futures will be most affected by the decision, but due to their age were unable to vote, including my 17 and 15 year old sons (and my 9 year old daughter, although she unlike the boys didn't have a view).

The anger comes from the Brits aimed at other British people and what they have done to the UK.

This post seems to refute your earlier one. Don't worry Davey all of your "credible reports" stated that we would be richer than we are now if we left the EU.

[jeremyp]

The English people just wanted to take control back from Brussels.

Please stop bleating that line. It's bollocks.

Commercial fishermen for example felt the EU has done enormous harm to our fishing stocks and an awful lot of fishermen voted leave for that reason.

But you understand it's bollocks right? British fishermen are in a fix because there aren't enough fish, not because of the EU.

The people who voted leave seem to want to be able to make our own trade deals with countries outside the EU.

Everybody wants to make trade deals with everybody else. Unfortunately, the reality is that 40% of our trade is with the EU. The trade deal with the EU is worth almost as much as all the others put together.

Businesses will need to adapt and find new opportunities.

Agree, because the Brexiters have fucked up our best market.

One of my sons who is in his twenties is not impressed with us leaving the EU either, he tells me we will still have to abide by many of the rules to trade with the EU or to have a Norway type deal but have no say in its make up at all.

He's right. Listen to him. Also, it's his future that people like Jack Knave have fucked up.

It is going to complicate things.

Yes, needlessly.

I'm not angry at leaving the EU, probably because my choice floated for a while between the leave and remain vote.

But stop telling people who actually cared that they shouldn't be angry either.

The rest of my family wouldn't have  been bothered if the Uk had the euro, but I'm a bit more traditionalist. I like the pound.

The Euro was always a bad idea, but the Euro is not the EU, it's irrelevant to Brexit.

It has nothing to do with being a little Englander really, but about not having to do what is decided in Brussels.

It has everything to do with being a Little Englander. It seems they will get their wish when Scotland gets its independence.

I voted remain in the end because I didn't feel I knew enough about the EU, so it was a vote for the known.

I appreciate your honesty. 

[jeremyp]

Dear Rose,

Just to add, I am not a migrant but Jeremyp is expressing ( a lot better than me ) exactly how I feel about Brexit.

Gonnagle.

Just for the record, I am not an immigrant either. Rose is correct that the P is for a foreign sounding name, but the foreigner in question arrived in the middle of the eighteenth century and his evil taking-our-jobs genes are much diluted by proper English stock.

[ProfessorDavey]

Is this Davey's rules for governing? We voted on a referendum that was in the manifesto of an elected government which introduced an Act which in turn had to go through the elected parliament.

Those are the actual real world rules suggest you start campaigning for Owen Smith because he is with you on this.

And that Act was clear that the referendum was advisory. They could have made it binding (as was the case in the FPTP/AV referendum) but they didn't.

Yet the leavers seem to think it completely unacceptable for parliament to exert its sovereign right to consider an advisory referendum and then chose to ignore it.

[ProfessorDavey]

This post seems to refute your earlier one. Don't worry Davey all of your "credible reports" stated that we would be richer than we are now if we left the EU.

All those credible reports indicated that we would be worse off in both the short and longer term if we left compared to remaining.

And guess what, all those credible organisations are being provided right as far as their predictions for early negative impacts are concerned (puns crashing, impact on credit rating, huge turbulence in the markets, collapse in both business and consumer confidence, growth stalling or even going into reverse).

So it is looking like they were right all along that leaving would have a significant negative impact on the economy compared to remaining in the EU.

[jakswan]

And that Act was clear that the referendum was advisory. They could have made it binding (as was the case in the FPTP/AV referendum) but they didn't.

Yet the leavers seem to think it completely unacceptable for parliament to exert its sovereign right to consider an advisory referendum and then chose to ignore it.

Some political parties seem to be setting that up as their policy, i.e. to take the referendum as advisory and ignore the result, I think this is it completely acceptable and vice versa.

[jakswan]

All those credible reports indicated that we would be worse off in both the short and longer term if we left compared to remaining.

And guess what, all those credible organisations are being provided right as far as their predictions for early negative impacts are concerned (puns crashing, impact on credit rating, huge turbulence in the markets, collapse in both business and consumer confidence, growth stalling or even going into reverse).

So it is looking like they were right all along that leaving would have a significant negative impact on the economy compared to remaining in the EU.

I think they predicted a minor recession (-0.05% GDP over two quarters) normally the FTSE is a good guide to future growth which is at a 3 month high.

Yes/No question did all your "credible reports" claim that the long term we'll be better off then we are now having left the EU?

Try not evade the question this time!

[jeremyp]

Yes/No question did all your "credible reports" claim that the long term we'll be better off then we are now having left the EU?

Ah yes this is where you claim that a 5% pay rise is better than a 12% pay rise.

People are going to lose livelihoods over this. Have you got anything to say to them?

[jakswan]

Ah yes this is where you claim that a 5% pay rise is better than a 12% pay rise.

People are going to lose livelihoods over this. Have you got anything to say to them?

If they are convinced of losing it my advice would have been to have voted leave.

[jeremyp]

If they are convinced of losing it my advice would have been to have voted leave.

Many Leavers will be losing their jobs over this. Perhaps it will give them time to ponder the stupidity of their decision.

I believe Cornwall (60-40 for Leave) is now desperately worried about all those lovely grants they get from the EU. You could argue that it is just desserts for the 60% who voted for such a stupid idea, but the 40% deserve our sympathy and your promise of sunlit uplands (not as good as the sunlit uplands we would have had by staying in the EU) at some unspecified time in the future isn't going to feed people now.

What are you going to say to them? Are you going to apologise for your thoughtlessness and xenophobia?

[jakswan]

Many Leavers will be losing their jobs over this. Perhaps it will give them time to ponder the stupidity of their decision.

I believe Cornwall (60-40 for Leave) is now desperately worried about all those lovely grants they get from the EU. You could argue that it is just desserts for the 60% who voted for such a stupid idea, but the 40% deserve our sympathy and your promise of sunlit uplands (not as good as the sunlit uplands we would have had by staying in the EU) at some unspecified time in the future isn't going to feed people now.

What are you going to say to them? Are you going to apologise for your thoughtlessness and xenophobia?

I was neither thoughtless nor xenophobic, grow up.

[jeremyp]

I was neither thoughtless nor xenophobic, grow up.

You voted Brexit but you seem to be in denial about the consequences of your vote. I think, you need to grow up.