Red on Red, Labour implode

[Jack Knave]

You haven't thought this through, have you!

The only game involving the USA will be TTIP. The USA will not bother with concern about the sensibilities of a small economy like that of the UK. The EU has been successfully holding out against the USA's demands for (eg) access by insurance companies into the health systems of EU countries. Do you think that the UK - by itself - could be anywhere as successful?

TTIP Lite will result in the UK becoming the Argentina of Europe and the NHS will be gone. They didn't paint THAT on the side of the Brexit bus.

You haven't thought this through, have you!

We trade about 55 billion a year, both ways, with the US already. We are an important ally in NATO. The US have their own problems, they can't afford to be too choosy. The global map is changing, you need to take this into account.

[Nearly Sane]

You haven't thought this through, have you!

We trade about 55 billion a year, both ways, with the US already. We are an important ally in NATO. The US have their own problems, they can't afford to be too choosy. The global map is changing, you need to take this into account.

And who is going to be negotiating this? Oh that would be a set of Tory politicians who want to privatise the NHS and think TTIP was a bit wishy washy. Explain how you thought this out?

[Jack Knave]

And who is going to be negotiating this? Oh that would be a set of Tory politicians who want to privatise the NHS and think TTIP was a bit wishy washy. Explain how you thought this out?

Negotiate what?

The 55 billion or so is what we trade with the US under WTO rules now and have done for decades.

[jeremyp]

Lillian Greenwood explains why she resigned from the Shadow Cabinet

http://www.liliangreenwood.co.uk/lilian_s_speech_to_nottingham_south_labour_party_members

It's quite an eye opener.

[jeremyp]

And a piece by a shadow arts and culture minister

http://www.debbonaire.co.uk/why_i_have_no_confidence_in_mr_corbyn_s_leadership

[Jack Knave]

One problem with the PLP is that they are not organised and have no real substantial support at the CLP level and so not many soldiers to do the necessary leg work. This is because of the PLP's long standing disconnection from their core support and voters. And because of their disconnect from reality they have made one arrogant and hubristic bad decision to the next. They are also not working under a single banner or reason for their vote against Corbyn and so are not a single force against him, except the "Anything but Corbyn" rhetoric, and so to a small measure are fighting amongst themselves as well as against Corbyn. On this basis I can't see them having much of a chance and will have to form a new party...

And Owen Smith sounds to me very much like Ed Miliband, precise but dry, devoid of any real brains and rather nasally.

[john]

Jeremy

Thank you for the Link to Lillian Greenwoods article

Quite an eye opener.

[Aruntraveller]

Jeremy

I know Lillian - not well granted; but well enough to chat to on the odd occasions we chance to meet. I have known her for a number of years and she is imho totally trustworthy. I have no reason at all to doubt the account of events she has given.

It is a very sad time for the Labour party.

[Brownie]

She sounds, from what I just read, like an honest person.  A bit plaintive if you don't mind me saying - but she was explaining things to her constituents which explains that somewhat.

What she says here is what, I fear, many feel:

Jeremy has a new Shadow Cabinet but it’s clear to me that he doesn’t understand collective responsibility and that he can't lead a team, so I'm afraid the same problems will eventually emerge in the new front bench. This is not about policy or ideology, it is about competence.

 
It is all very sad.  If Jeremy goes, who is going to be fit enough to take his place?

[jakswan]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36896944

Sounds more like Labour.

Of course if you tax more a group that really good at avoiding tax you don't really get more. The 50p actually resulted in less revenue last time it was introduced I think.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Jakswan,

Nah!! someone will have to explain to me about robbing the rich to feed the poor, this is old Labour bullshit, tax the richest one per cent, won't they just move abroad, I am sure this crap has been discussed before.

Minimum guaranteed working hours and the abolition of zero hours contracts
Scrapping trade union reforms that curb the ability of unions to call strikes
To abolish the Department for Work and Pensions, replacing it with a Ministry of Labour and a Department for Social Security
Build 1.5 million homes over five years
Reverse cuts to capital gains tax and inheritance tax
No more cuts to corporation tax
Same rights for agency workers as full time workers
Workers to be placed on company remuneration committees

These are good, they can be discussed, but surely this is something along the same lines as Corbyn wants, this whole Labour Leadership battle is bullshit, get behind Corbyn, he may be boring but Smith is Plastic, the Tories are the real enemy of this country not Corbyn.

Gonnagle.

[jakswan]

Dear Jakswan,

Nah!! someone will have to explain to me about robbing the rich to feed the poor, this is old Labour bullshit, tax the richest one per cent, won't they just move abroad, I am sure this crap has been discussed before.

Its not just been discussed its been done, in the 70s the highest tax rate was c. 90%. Its about idealistic or realistic, go after the big corps Google have more money than they know what to do with!

These are good, they can be discussed, but surely this is something along the same lines as Corbyn wants, this whole Labour Leadership battle is bullshit, get behind Corbyn, he may be boring but Smith is Plastic, the Tories are the real enemy of this country not Corbyn.

Some are good, e.g. some people like zero hour contracts.

Corbyn isn't just boring but inept, the Tories need to be held to account and Corbyn simply isn't capable.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Jakswan,

Its not just been discussed its been done, in the 70s the highest tax rate was c. 90%. Its about idealistic or realistic, go after the big corps Google have more money than they know what to do with!

90%, yes I think I remember something as outrageous as that, Smith is just rehashing this stupidity, and yes again, you use words like idealistic and realistic I use fairness, but you are right we should be targeting the big companies making billions from us, Theresa May in her first speech as PM mentioned more welfare cuts she never said a word about going after the big major players, typical Tories, privatise everything by stealth.

Some are good, e.g. some people like zero hour contracts.

There should be no working conditions that can be used to exploit no matter if some like zero hour contracts.

Corbyn isn't just boring but inept, the Tories need to be held to account and Corbyn simply isn't capable.

Well if the best the Labour party can do is plastic Smith then give me Corbyn, if the best that Smith can do is attack Corbyns patriotism, not only plastic but see through plastic.

Gonnagle.

[wigginhall]

Yes, I couldn't believe it when Smith said Corbyn wasn't patriotic on Newsnight, and something about immigration being too high in some places.   Who needs Farage?

[Nearly Sane]

Yes, I couldn't believe it when Smith said Corbyn wasn't patriotic on Newsnight, and something about immigration being too high in some places.   Who needs Farage?

We are talking about a party that had a get immigration under control mug at the election.

[L.A.]

I just find it bizarre that there are Labour party members who see Jeremy as anything other than a complete joke and serious electoral liability - haven't they noticed how popular he is with the Tories?

[Gonnagle]

Dear Lapsed,

Aye!  That's why your last Leader asked him to go, they know he is a threat, Corbyn knows that your boom and bust capitalism is a busted flush, they know that that Corbyn has the Tories sussed, your little government tactics of privatising everything is old news, Corbyn knows about your back door tactics to privatise the NHS, that is why when the man stands up in the house he is constantly heckled by your childish playground party.

Gonnagle.

[L.A.]

Dear Lapsed,

Aye!  That's why your last Leader asked him to go, they know he is a threat, Corbyn knows that your boom and bust capitalism is a busted flush, they know that that Corbyn has the Tories sussed, your little government tactics of privatising everything is old news, Corbyn knows about your back door tactics to privatise the NHS, that is why when the man stands up in the house he is constantly heckled by your childish playground party.

Gonnagle.

Cameron was 'Demob Happy' when he made that statement - a rare case of a politician telling it how it is. Most Tories are more than happy to have Jeremy systematically trashing the opposition.

Personally I would like to see a functioning opposition to hold the government to account, but there is no sign of that at the moment and God knows what will happen to Labour at the next election.

[Dicky Underpants]

And a piece by a shadow arts and culture minister

http://www.debbonaire.co.uk/why_i_have_no_confidence_in_mr_corbyn_s_leadership

Yes, I mentioned Thangam Debbonaire's scathing assessment of Corbyn's leadership in the 'New party leaders' thread. The impression given is that Corbyn is a great exponent of mild-mannered dithering. Ms Debbonaire has ten times Corbyn's balls, as she has shown by her fortitude after her cancer scare, and having to deal with the Corbynistas' ill-informed attacks on her even after she resumed work after medical treatment.

The impression of out-of-touch dithering from Corbyn was reinforced this morning on the radio via the impressions of Alan Johnson, who gave a very different impression to Corbyn's attitude to the Brexit matter. Far from 'going up and down the country, speaking vociferously on behalf of the Remain faction' (as Corbyn claimed to Andrew Marr), Alan Johnson says that Corbyn gave the impression that the whole affair was rather annoying and he wished it would go away so he and John McDonnall could witter on about socialism as it was in 1975, or better still tell us about his horticultural skills in growing broad beans.

Now is may be that Corbyn's broad-spectrum appeal to even a large number of mild-mannered middle-class people owes much to a huge revulsion of everything that Tony Blair brought to the Labour Party, but somebody with a bit more spunk than this is required to give socialism the kiss of life. And 80% of the elected party members know this only too well.

[Dicky Underpants]

Personally I would like to see a functioning opposition to hold the government to account, but there is no sign of that at the moment and God knows what will happen to Labour at the next election.

Too right - but WTF are those 80% of Labour mps who opposed Corbyn doing to try and change things for the better? Electing Mr. O. Smith doesn't look like being the answer.

[wigginhall]

I think Labour are having a nervous breakdown post-Blair.   I think this is inevitable after a big figure like that, especially in the light of Iraq.   Half the MPs would like another Blair, whereas the membership are recoiling from Blair, so there is a big mess.  Eventually, it will probably settle down, and I expect there are MPs in waiting, who are not prepared to stick their head above the parapet yet.   Starmer seems a favourite, but he seems rather dull.   Maybe Labour could do with dull.  Also Jarvis.  Anybody with a Blairite past is a non-starter. 

[L.A.]

Too right - but WTF are those 80% of Labour mps who opposed Corbyn doing to try and change things for the better? Electing Mr. O. Smith doesn't look like being the answer.

Maybe it will take an electoral 'wipe-out' to bring them to their senses, but where will that leave the country and could they ever recover?

[L.A.]

I think Labour are having a nervous breakdown post-Blair.   I think this is inevitable after a big figure like that, especially in the light of Iraq.   Half the MPs would like another Blair, whereas the membership are recoiling from Blair, so there is a big mess.  Eventually, it will probably settle down, and I expect there are MPs in waiting, who are not prepared to stick their head above the parapet yet.   Starmer seems a favourite, but he seems rather dull.   Maybe Labour could do with dull.  Also Jarvis.

I think you have identified the problem.

Blair, made Labour electable by seizing the centre ground but screwed-up in a number of areas, notably Iraq. Therefore the very name of Blair virtually equates to Hitler in many Labour circles, so that any Labour politician who does not 'sign-up' to a Hard Left agenda is branded 'Blairite'.

Unfortunately for Labour, the electorate is not too keen on the Lefties, so all they have done is shoot themselves in the foot.

[wigginhall]

I'm not sure that you have to be 'hard left', but certainly, old Blairites are poison.   But there are new people who are not from Blair's crop, e.g. Starmer, not particularly left-wing is he?   But if Starmer put himself forward right now, he could get slaughtered in the general craziness, so he will wait.   I bet he fancies it. 

[L.A.]

I'm not sure that you have to be 'hard left', but certainly, old Blairites are poison.   But there are new people who are not from Blair's crop, e.g. Starmer, not particularly left-wing is he?

I'm sure there are a great many good people amongst Labour's MP's who could potentially form a successful government - IF the path to electability wasn't blocked by Corbyn.