Red on Red, Labour implode

[jeremyp]

Dear Lapsed,

Aye!  That's why your last Leader asked him to go, they know he is a threat, Corbyn knows that your boom and bust capitalism is a busted flush,

I'm afraid not, boom and bust capitalism is just part of reality. That's the way the World is.

they know that that Corbyn has the Tories sussed, your little government tactics of privatising everything is old news, Corbyn knows about your back door tactics to privatise the NHS, that is why when the man stands up in the house he is constantly heckled by your childish playground party.

The real problem with Corbyn has nothing to do with his ideals, it's that he is just fucking useless.

[Ricky Spanish]

What is with all this hard-left stuff?

Surely you can't be talking about Corbyn?

I mean, I know the mainstream rightwing media are trying to portray Jeremy Corbyn as some sort of hard-left, anti-capitalist Marxist extremist when the fact is he is a centre-left social democrat.

Although to be fair, I have noticed that there are more than just a few loony right wing, politically illiterate, posters on this thread!!

[Jack Knave]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36896944

Sounds more like Labour.

Of course if you tax more a group that really good at avoiding tax you don't really get more. The 50p actually resulted in less revenue last time it was introduced I think.

Owen Smith is lying though. As one of Corbynites said he hadn't been pushing for these types of issues for years but was just saying the things he thinks the voter want to hear at this point in the leadership race.

[Jack Knave]

Dear Jakswan,

Nah!! someone will have to explain to me about robbing the rich to feed the poor, this is old Labour bullshit, tax the richest one per cent, won't they just move abroad, I am sure this crap has been discussed before.


These are good, they can be discussed, but surely this is something along the same lines as Corbyn wants, this whole Labour Leadership battle is bullshit, get behind Corbyn, he may be boring but Smith is Plastic, the Tories are the real enemy of this country not Corbyn.

Gonnagle.

Read the Greenwood article, Corbyn can't lead. He's a fart in the wind...

Yes, Smith is a bit like Miliband a revitalized zombie.

[Jack Knave]

Yes, I couldn't believe it when Smith said Corbyn wasn't patriotic on Newsnight, and something about immigration being too high in some places.   Who needs Farage?

What I found odd about his statements was that a lot of what he said went against or contradicted his pro-EU position. It was so blatant he was lying.

[Jack Knave]

I think you have identified the problem.

Blair, made Labour electable by seizing the centre ground but screwed-up in a number of areas, notably Iraq. Therefore the very name of Blair virtually equates to Hitler in many Labour circles, so that any Labour politician who does not 'sign-up' to a Hard Left agenda is branded 'Blairite'.

Unfortunately for Labour, the electorate is not too keen on the Lefties, so all they have done is shoot themselves in the foot.

The real problem is that the party (and parties) have become too self satisfied over the years, and cliquey, and employed the Neo-Liberal project that has aliened their working class voters and that their blind indifference was bound to hit the buffs at some point.

What is still wrong is that many are trying to get back to what is was before instead of seeing the reality that is around them. You can't teach an old dog new tricks...

[L.A.]

The real problem is that the party (and parties) have become too self satisfied over the years, and cliquey, and employed the Neo-Liberal project that has aliened their working class voters and that their blind indifference was bound to hit the buffs at some point.

What is still wrong is that many are trying to get back to what is was before instead of seeing the reality that is around them. You can't teach an old dog new tricks...

You are forever ranting about the Neo-Liberal project so what are you actually referring to Jack?

According to Wiki:

"Neoliberalism (or sometimes neo-liberalism) refers primarily to the 20th century resurgence of 19th century ideas associated with laissez-faire economic liberalism. These include extensive economic liberalization policies such as privatization, fiscal austerity, deregulation, free trade, and reductions in government spending in order to enhance the role of the private sector in the economy.The implementation of neoliberal policies and the acceptance of neoliberal economic theories in the 1970s are seen by some academics as the root of financialization, with the financial crisis of 2007–08 as one of the ultimate results."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism

So are these really the things that you object to or have you just latched-on to the catchphrase?

As a Brexiteer, I would have thought you would be rather in favour of free-trade?

[Hope]

What do folk expect the outcome of Tuesday's court hearing concerning the Labour NEC's decision to allow JC to stand automatically?  Apparently, the judge is due to deliver their verdict this afternoon.

[L.A.]

What do folk expect the outcome of Tuesday's court hearing concerning the Labour NEC's decision to allow JC to stand automatically?  Apparently, the judge is due to deliver their verdict this afternoon.

I'm just totally bemused by the whole process, it's like a bizarre soap.

[Aruntraveller]

I'm just totally bemused by the whole process, it's like a bizarre soap.

Aye, lost any interest I had - and this as a lifetime supporter of Labour. Partner and I were talking about the fact that a significant proportion of Labour voters prefer Mrs May to the current leader. I'm not even sure if I'm not one of them. What a shambles.

[Brownie]

I've seen Ed Miliband on TV recently a couple of times and he is so different to when he was Labour leader; he's relaxed, charming, articulate, clever, witty.....he might even make a good leader again.

[Aruntraveller]

I've seen Ed Miliband on TV recently a couple of times and he is so different to when he was Labour leader; he's relaxed, charming, articulate, clever, witty.....he might even make a good leader again.

It won't happen. In any case I doubt he would wish to subject himself to that all over again. He does, according to all acounts, possess all the qualities you list - but as ever the meedjah will out.

The country is in it's current predicament largely because of the craven and mendacious nature of most of our press, and the way it has misled the country over decades.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Trent,

I'm not even sure if I'm not one of them.

Nooooooo!!

Dear Brownie,

he might even make a good leader again.

Noooooo!!

But Trent is right, it is a shambles, get behind Corbyn, okay he is no great leader, he doesn't have the soundbites or the eloquence in the commons but he knows the Tory way is a busted flush, their push for privatising everything will be our downfall ( this is the Tory mantra ) back Corbyn until ( as some suggest ) a new leader appears, it is most definitely not Smith.

The Tories are the problem, it is Corbyns policies you need to back, not the man, the country needs investment, not more austerity.

What we need on this forum is a short essay from Wigs on Keynes versus Monetarism ( Tories are Monetarism ) then you will see that investment is really what this country needs.

Gonnagle.

[jeremyp]

get behind Corbyn, okay he is no great leader,

Since this is for the position of leader of the Labour Party, I would have thought that is a significant negative and given the importance of the position as leader of HM Opposition, it should disqualify him.

he doesn't have the soundbites or the eloquence in the commons but he knows the Tory way is a busted flush

No point in knowing that if he is too ineffective to do anything about it.

[Aruntraveller]

No argument on the fact that we need more investment. I just do not think that Jeremy C is the man to make it happen. Don't get me wrong - I don't particularly disagree on many things he says. But if no-one is listening and if you are perceived to be a not very good leader the fgame is up. People are not going to vote for him in large enough numbers.

There was an interesting article in The Guardian by Owen Jones yesterday and although I don't always agree with him I'm afraid currently is analysis is correct on Corbyn and the Labour party.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jul/27/mass-membership-labour-social-movement-community

[Gonnagle]

Dear Jeremyp,

Since this is for the position of leader of the Labour Party,

So we have a new thread, What makes a great leader, it is most certainly not plastic, plastic see through, plastic see through Tory/Farage lite Smith.

A quality of a great leader, someone who stands by his convictions.

Gonnagle.

[jeremyp]

Dear Jeremyp,
So we have a new thread, What makes a great leader, it is most certainly not plastic, plastic see through, plastic see through Tory/Farage lite Smith.

A quality of a great leader, someone who stands by his convictions.

Wrong. Corbyn stands by his convictions and he is a shit leader. A great leader is somebody who can lead other people. A great leader not only has a vision but can persuade others to buy into that vision and work towards achieving its goals.

Corbyn couldn't even command the loyalty of the cabinet he selected. He really needs to go. Who they replace him with is a problem because the best candidates were tainted by the New Labour period.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Trent,

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jul/27/mass-membership-labour-social-movement-community
 
Excellent article and I can't see anything to argue against but I am struggling to see any argument against Corbyn, I do see the disconnect he talks about, middle class Labour voters ( I hate all this class talk ) not being able to connect with working class Labour voters.

Yes the Labour party does need to be out there talking to ordinary voters, I see Corbyn as the man to do this not Smith.

Gonnagle.

[Aruntraveller]

The basic thrust of the article was that Labour has got to stop acting less like a pressure group/social movement and somewhat more like a political party.

Jeremy C would be fine leading CND - but the Labour party - no.

I am also somewhat bemused by his Damascene conversion to party discipline - he has, after all, spent most of his time on the backbenches being totally undisciplined with regard to his own party.

[jakswan]

But Trent is right, it is a shambles, get behind Corbyn, okay he is no great leader, he doesn't have the soundbites or the eloquence in the commons but he knows the Tory way is a busted flush, their push for privatising everything will be our downfall ( this is the Tory mantra ) back Corbyn until ( as some suggest ) a new leader appears, it is most definitely not Smith.

You think you know the "Tory way", whatever you think that means, is a busted flush, the thing is the rest of electorate don't agree since they just got back in. What labour need is a leader that does have the soundbites or the eloquence to convince the electorate, you just admitted Corbyn is lacking in this regard.

The Tories are the problem, it is Corbyns policies you need to back, not the man, the country needs investment, not more austerity.

This is what Miliband campaigned for and lost.

[wigginhall]

I thought that Miliband and Balls supported austerity, and said they would not reverse Tory cuts.  In fact, my memory is that Balls suggested cutting winter fuel payments for some pensioners, don't have a link, however.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

You think you know the "Tory way", whatever you think that means, is a busted flush, the thing is the rest of electorate don't agree since they just got back in. What labour need is a leader that does have the soundbites or the eloquence to convince the electorate, you just admitted Corbyn is lacking in this regard.

This is what Miliband campaigned for and lost.

Margaret Thatcher herself could put up for labour leadership and not get in. I'm afraid the majority of voters run on clockwork Jak and wont whirr for labour.....or should that be clang against the tories until 2025.

I think a coalition was rather fancied in 2015 but the science of voting them in is in it's infancy.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Jakswan,

You think you know the "Tory way", whatever you think that means, is a busted flush, the thing is the rest of electorate don't agree since they just got back in. What labour need is a leader that does have the soundbites or the eloquence to convince the electorate, you just admitted Corbyn is lacking in this regard.

The Tory way, privatise everything, I think it is called "small government" nothing is safe, privatisation is slowly creeping into our NHS, Ronald McDonald hospices on NHS grounds, it's all their, the evidence is out there.

The rest of the electorate, you mean the very small majority which the government got in on.

Gonnagle.

[Nearly Sane]

Dear Jakswan,

The Tory way, privatise everything, I think it is called "small government" nothing is safe, privatisation is slowly creeping into our NHS, Ronald McDonald hospices on NHS grounds, it's all their, the evidence is out there.

The rest of the electorate, you mean the very small majority which the government got in on.

Gonnagle.

That majority being based on 37% of those who voted.

[jakswan]

The Tory way, privatise everything, I think it is called "small government" nothing is safe, privatisation is slowly creeping into our NHS, Ronald McDonald hospices on NHS grounds, it's all their, the evidence is out there.

I'm not a Tory but that is like claiming that Corbyn would nationalise everything, he has never said that, I'll judge people on what they say and do.

The rest of the electorate, you mean the very small majority which the government got in on.

It wasn't a majority, as NS has pointed out it was 37% of the vote. Your point doesn't refute mine, Corbyn needs to convince the electorate he is incapable by your own admission.