Red on Red, Labour implode

[Nearly Sane]

Whatever your perspective, you can't actually believe that she swung the vote for Leave! She simply had the political savvy to not to make enemies.

Strawman there as I didn't say she did. Just if there is a suspicion that she played it, then were it true it doesn't reflect well on her.

[L.A.]

it was a free vote from that view. He campaigned in a visible way. She didn't

That is a possibility, but it's already yesterdays news.

[L.A.]

Strawman there as I didn't say she did. Just if there is a suspicion that she played it, then were it true it doesn't reflect well on her.

No dry stalks of cereal plants involved at all. The implication was that May had somehow influenced to vote towards Leave which was clearly ridiculous.

[Nearly Sane]

That is a possibility, but it's already yesterdays news.

you are missing the point here, I'm not talking about what the impact in the electorate, I'm talking about your judgement of her. You seem to be happy if she deliberately hid for the benefit of her personal ambitions

[Nearly Sane]

No dry stalks of cereal plants involved at all. The implication was that May had somehow influenced to vote towards Leave which was clearly ridiculous.

More straw. The implication is that she chose one view and then his to help her own career in the case of either result.

[L.A.]

you are missing the point here, I'm not talking about what the impact in the electorate, I'm talking about your judgement of her. You seem to be happy if she deliberately hid for the benefit of her personal ambitions

If we could see into the heart of others how simple life would be! . . .  Maybe?

May is a politician, she plays the game of politics and she won. In that respect she is no different to Salmond or Sturgeon.

[L.A.]

More straw. The implication is that she chose one view and then his to help her own career in the case of either result.

She did what she needed to do and she did so without making enemies, or at least important enemies.

All that has changed is that someone has 'cashed-in' on their memoirs.

[jeremyp]

Generally users of steel would always like prices to be lower (who wouldn't), but if we open the door to countries like China 'dumping' their surplus steel on us, that would be likely to kill-off our own manufacturers (who can compete with steel that is sold for less than cost?) - so when China have got rid of there excess stock, prices will rise, and we will have lost the capacity to make our own.

But our steel industry wasn't competitive even before the Chinese started dumping cheap steel on us.

Bad news for all UK industry.

No. There are other places to get steel from.

[jeremyp]

He campaigned in a visible way. She didn't

Did he? I don't recall anything he did in the campaign.

[Hope]

Did he? I don't recall anything he did in the campaign.

jeremy, NS is correct: JC did campaign more visibly than TM.  Often it was in a bumbling manner that involved getting part way through an endorsement before pausing to check his notes as to what he was endorsing.  Many folk I know felt that this was perhaps the most effective way of campaigning for Brexit of any of the campaigners.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Jeremyp,

Did he? I don't recall anything he did in the campaign.

I remember his campaigning but it was not covered enough by the media, he was not newsworthy, the media preferred to focus on the lies from both sides of the divide.

I have to say I like this Corbyn fellow, he seems to be honest, down to earth and focus's on the important issue's and he is no friend of the media, and there in lies an important lesson for me, I need to focus on reading between the lines, to remember not to take everything reported in the media at face value.

Gonnagle.

[Nearly Sane]

Did he? I don't recall anything he did in the campaign.

Well he managed to give the EU 7/10 on TV. Don't get me wrong it was not the campaign of dreams but it was fairly constant. In not wanting to be seen campaigning with Tories he reduced the possibilities of appearances at the more obvious events. The difference here is that I can't nhelp but think that May's was a personal political decision to position herself rather than anything else.

[L.A.]

jeremy, NS is correct: JC did campaign more visibly than TM.  Often it was in a bumbling manner that involved getting part way through an endorsement before pausing to check his notes as to what he was endorsing.  Many folk I know felt that this was perhaps the most effective way of campaigning for Brexit of any of the campaigners.

Yes, and he was leader of the opposition! He needed to do a bit more than mutter a few notes. He is on record as saying  that "he had mixed feelings on the EU" so he was never going to campaign passionately. (the phrase 'waste of space' springs to mind)

[L.A.]

Well he managed to give the EU 7/10 on TV. Don't get me wrong it was not the campaign of dreams but it was fairly constant. In not wanting to be seen campaigning with Tories he reduced the possibilities of appearances at the more obvious events. The difference here is that I can't nhelp but think that May's was a personal political decision to position herself rather than anything else.

History will judge May on one thing and one thing only - how well she sorts out the Brexit mess.

[Nearly Sane]

Yes, and he was leader of the opposition! He needed to do a bit more than mutter a few notes. He is on record as saying  that "he had mixed feelings on the EU" so he was never going to campaign passionately. (the phrase 'waste of space' springs to mind)

But it wasn't done simply in party political basis and surely if he was lukewarm then he should say that.

[Nearly Sane]

History will judge May on one thing and one thing only - how well she sorts out the Brexit mess.

even though she may have been happy for it to come about? This history boy needs to learn some nuance

[L.A.]

But it wasn't done simply in party political basis and surely if he was lukewarm then he should say that.

He is on record as making several 'lukewarm' statements about the EU, yet he went through the motions of campaigning.

The man is a disgrace.

[Nearly Sane]

He is on record as making several 'lukewarm' statements about the EU, yet he went through the motions of campaigning.

The man is a disgrace.

If you are lukewarm about something surely you should that. As for campaigning then surely if in balance you think something is right then you can campaign for it?

I'm far from Jezza's biggest fan but castigating someone for honesty as opposed to lying seems odd.

[L.A.]

If you are lukewarm about something surely you should that. As for campaigning then surely if in balance you think something is right then you can campaign for it?

I'm far from Jezza's biggest fan but castigating someone for honesty as opposed to lying seems odd.

If he had been honest, he would have declared himself neutral and let someone else head the Labour campaign - but that would have weakened his leadership so I'm guessing that that might have been at the back of his mind.

[Aruntraveller]

If he had been honest, he would have declared himself neutral and let someone else head the Labour campaign - but that would have weakened his leadership so I'm guessing that that might have been at the back of his mind.

It is strange to contrast your characterization of Teresa May "She did what she had to do" with that of Mr Corbyn's "If he had been honest".

I suspect, just a little bit of bias going on here.

[Nearly Sane]

If he had been honest, he would have declared himself neutral and let someone else head the Labour campaign - but that would have weakened his leadership so I'm guessing that that might have been at the back of his mind.

But he wasn't neutral, he was in favour of it on balance. I sincerely doubt he was worried about his leadership when after all even after the vote, he's just walked an election.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Lapsed,



At the back of his mind he was probably thinking, the Tories are going to far with their austerity nonsense and now they have landed me with this brexit fiasco, something that the country could have avoided if they had a stronger leader, the man had to go out and campaign for something that could have been sorted out from within the EU.

But no, UKIP flashed its false teeth and some within Mr Cameron's own party were blowing raspberries at him, he knee jerked, and now he is off sunning himself.

The country suffers because of a weak government, unable or not willing to stand up to the fat cats that Jack Knave tell us run the EU.

Gonnagle.

[L.A.]

Dear Lapsed,



At the back of his mind he was probably thinking, the Tories are going to far with their austerity nonsense and now they have landed me with this brexit fiasco, something that the country could have avoided if they had a stronger leader, the man had to go out and campaign for something that could have been sorted out from within the EU.

But no, UKIP flashed its false teeth and some within Mr Cameron's own party were blowing raspberries at him, he knee jerked, and now he is off sunning himself.

The country suffers because of a weak government, unable or not willing to stand up to the fat cats that Jack Knave tell us run the EU.

Gonnagle.

Labour have two big problems:

1/ https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/sep/10/britains-political-tribes-hinder-labour-chances-of-winning-coalition which can be summarised as 'Voters don't want a Lefty government'.

and

2/ Traditional Labour voters followed UKIP into the Brexit camp.

Suddenly the Tories look like the party of sanity and if Saint Theresa can work a few minor miracles Labour could be in the wilderness for a very long time.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Lapsed,



If we are still using 20th century definitions, right, left, centre, then yes Mr Corbyn is Leftwing, but the survey ( for me ) just shows me how fed up voters are with old politics, and this shone through in all the debates I witnessed on the telly, voters fed up with not being given a straight answer.

And as Mrs May constantly chips away at what is great about this country, the NHS, the Junior Doctors strike for instance, voters will see through Tory politics, but I do see a hill that Mr Corbyn has to climb to persuade voters away from UKIP policies, but just like the Tories, UKIP are also famous for foot shooting, when the Brexiteers see that their old England is not returning, they might just vote for the only person talking sense.

Gonnagle.

[L.A.]

Dear Lapsed,



If we are still using 20th century definitions, right, left, centre, then yes Mr Corbyn is Leftwing, but the survey ( for me ) just shows me how fed up voters are with old politics, and this shone through in all the debates I witnessed on the telly, voters fed up with not being given a straight answer.

And as Mrs May constantly chips away at what is great about this country, the NHS, the Junior Doctors strike for instance, voters will see through Tory politics, but I do see a hill that Mr Corbyn has to climb to persuade voters away from UKIP policies, but just like the Tories, UKIP are also famous for foot shooting, when the Brexiteers see that their old England is not returning, they might just vote for the only person talking sense.

Gonnagle.

I think most of the Brexit camp scared themselves shit-less when they won and are now trying to avoid blame by damage limitation. They will be united behind May for a long as she is succeeding or at least until negotiations totally screw-up. If she succeeds she will be the nations saviour and the Tories will be unassailable.  If she fails it's all bets off.