Racist incidents going of in England and Wales

[Brownie]

http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/bbc-reporter-becomes-latest-victim-of-post-brexit-racist-abuse/ar-AAhFMOA?li=BBoPWjQ&ocid=mailsignout

[ProfessorDavey]

I'm not about to label all "leave" supporters as racists.

Nor would I, but that doesn't mean that some are.

Labelling Brexit supporters as racists and blaming them for incidences isn't going to help anyone.

Brexit has emboldened racists and legitimised racism.

[Brownie]

It says in the news today that racist incidents are up by 57%, I don't know how accurate that is but any increase is a huge step backwards for this society.

[Gonnagle]

Dear World gone crazy,

It was reported on the Jeremy Vine show that one idiot actually thought voting leave meant that all foreigners had to leave, I think Berational has a point, pass an exam before you are allowed to vote.

Gonnagle.

[Brownie]

He's not alone in saying that, my son said much the same on Saturday (other things too - at great length  ). He said there should be a questionnaire and if the questions were not answered correctly, the person should not be allowed to vote.  People must know exactly what they are voting for.  I can see what he and BeR mean but it would be very difficult to put into practice and there would be all sorts of talk about infringement of human rights.  So I sit on the fence on that one though what you have said, Gonnagle, about someone thinking 'Leave' meant 'All foreigners leave', beggers belief.

[ippy]

The Brexit stance has encouraged some very unpleasant racism, which doesn't show Britain up in a good light.

This is just not true Floo, the remainers are no better than the leave lot they've both tried their best to smear each other including about racism, the Brexit lot, like me, are no more racist than any other average group of our population, you'll always get a few of these very sad people even long after getting away from a federal Europe.

The only problem the Brexit has is with immigration is the sheer numbers of immigrants, not where they come from, or what part of the Dulux colour chart they represent.

Have you read anything or know about the Ausi system; it's to do with age, family reunion, can you speak with an acceptable standard of English, if you can't work can you support yourself and say they need air conditioning engineers? you're an air conditioning engineer? The door opens, come in and pro rata any other required skill, ex-criminals are unable to settle.

I'm sure there are more qualifications I've missed, but my description of how the Ausis select is near enough to how it is and each one of the above qualifications are awarded points, if the applicant acquires enough points, in you come, their selection procedure has nothing to with the race of the applicant.

ippy           

[Bubbles]

Just out of interest people on the internet have come up with the idea of wearing a safety pin to show solidarity with immigrants so the don't feel so alone.

http://indy100.independent.co.uk/article/safetypin-the-simple-way-you-can-show-solidarity-with-the-uks-foreignborn-population--ZJzeRPz6kHW

[Brownie]

Just out of interest people on the internet have come up with the idea of wearing a safety pin to show solidarity with immigrants so the don't feel so alone.

http://indy100.independent.co.uk/article/safetypin-the-simple-way-you-can-show-solidarity-with-the-uks-foreignborn-population--ZJzeRPz6kHW

Very punk Rose!

I like it, I hope it catches on and will wear a safety pin when I go out.

[jeremyp]

This is just not true Floo, the remainers are no better than the leave lot they've both tried their best to smear each other including about racism, the Brexit lot, like me, are no more racist than any other average group of our population, you'll always get a few of these very sad people even long after getting away from a federal Europe.

The only problem the Brexit has is with immigration is the sheer numbers of immigrants, not where they come from, or what part of the Dulux colour chart they represent.

Have you read anything or know about the Ausi system; it's to do with age, family reunion, can you speak with an acceptable standard of English, if you can't work can you support yourself and say they need air conditioning engineers? you're an air conditioning engineer? The door opens, come in and pro rata any other required skill, ex-criminals are unable to settle.

I'm sure there are more qualifications I've missed, but my description of how the Ausis select is near enough to how it is and each one of the above qualifications are awarded points, if the applicant acquires enough points, in you come, their selection procedure has nothing to with the race of the applicant.

ippy         

Sadly, it is clear that you are wrong. The saying is that not all Leave voters are racist, but all racists are Leave voters.

It seems that many people have taken the result of the referendum as license to be racist. I doubt if any of them were Remain voters.

[Leonard James]

Dear World gone crazy,

It was reported on the Jeremy Vine show that one idiot actually thought voting leave meant that all foreigners had to leave, I think Berational has a point, pass an exam before you are allowed to vote.

Gonnagle.

I sometimes get a Keith feeling that the sooner humans become extinct the better for this planet. 

[Bubbles]

I sometimes get a Keith feeling that the sooner humans become extinct the better for this planet. 

That is depressing, from you Len.

 

[ippy]

Sadly, it is clear that you are wrong. The saying is that not all Leave voters are racist, but all racists are Leave voters.

It seems that many people have taken the result of the referendum as license to be racist. I doubt if any of them were Remain voters.

It's hardly my fault or the fault of the mainly decent Brexiters that these sad racist people are about but if it is as you seem to think it is, thank goodness they have arrived at, IMO, the right decission, the sheer numbers and federation were the main issues for me.

ippy

[Brownie]

Reading a Sunday Times article with the headline, "Far right calls for 'white jihad'".  It concerns a group called:  "National Action" who are spreading their views on Twitter, Youtube and FB.  There is a picture of them demonstrating with banner saying, "Refugees not welcome
Hiter was right".  The group posted on Twitter a picture of Thomas Mair, murderer of Jo Cox, with the caption, "#Vote Leave, don't let this man's sacrifice go in vain".

There is an associated group called: North West Infidels.  Here is a link to their Facebook account:

https://www.facebook.com/BoltonNorthWestInfidels/

Very sinister.

[Bubbles]

Reading a Sunday Times article with the headline, "Far right calls for 'white jihad'".  It concerns a group called:  "National Action" who are spreading their views on Twitter, Youtube and FB.  There is a picture of them demonstrating with banner saying, "Refugees not welcome
Hiter was right".  The group posted on Twitter a picture of Thomas Mair, murderer of Jo Cox, with the caption, "#Vote Leave, don't let this man's sacrifice go in vain".

There is an associated group called: North West Infidels.  Here is a link to their Facebook account:

https://www.facebook.com/BoltonNorthWestInfidels/

Very sinister.

Yes, it's a Nazi based thing  if it uses or supports combat18.

18 stands for letters of the alphabet A and H   ( Adolf Hitler)

They have been around long before Brexit though and are not really a result of Brexit.

The Facebook page you brought up shows stuff about Lee Rigby so some of it is old.

There seems to be a link with Ulster combat 18.

What is happening is the press are now reporting on them, but they have been there for years, pumping out the same racist stuff. White supremacy and white Jihad. The Muslims taking over by stealth and other rants.

Nothing has changed there, except people are now being made aware of them.

It's like when papers seem to focus on dog bites, suddenly there are lots of them. It's because the media has chosen to focus on that particular area.

However given the vote to leave Brexit they may also be choosing to be more visible.

Which is worrying.

I wish the Labour Party would sort itself out, it seems to be writing itself out of the next election.

It's a really bad time.

[Brownie]

Yeah I k :(now that Rose but it appears they have reappeared because of Brexit.  Remember Combat 18 very well, they recorded a single would you believe!  I dunno who bought it.

(I echo what you said to Len  , maybe he is having an off day,  I hope so, usually get the impression his life in Spain has been pretty good.)

[jeremyp]

It's hardly my fault or the fault of the mainly decent Brexiters that these sad racist people are about but if it is as you seem to think it is, thank goodness they have arrived at, IMO, the right decission, the sheer numbers and federation were the main issues for me.

ippy

The racists think the Brexit vote has legitimised their cause.

What do you mean by the "sheer numbers"? The actual numbers of immigrants coming here (even less the ones that we can now stop) are not a huge deal.

[Bubbles]

The racists think the Brexit vote has legitimised their cause.

What do you mean by the "sheer numbers"? The actual numbers of immigrants coming here (even less the ones that we can now stop) are not a huge deal.

Obviously they are for some people.

That's partly why we are in this mess, no one took those peoples feelings seriously.

It backfired.  They voted leave.

[Bubbles]

All it needs is for large sections of the population to feel they are being hoodwinked, ignored again and Brexit isn't happening and they will be voting for Nigel Farage.
That's why David Cameron and the Gov  IMO is so careful about saying the will if the people will be followed.

It's not democratic to not put Brexit through now.

People will be angry if they feel they voted for something and others have sneakily crushed it.

Think if Scotland had voted democratically for independance and then the gov delayed and found reasons not to do it.

Same thing.

People will think they have been cheated.

[jeremyp]

Obviously they are for some people.

That's partly why we are in this mess, no one took those peoples feelings seriously.

It backfired.  They voted leave.

Clearly.

Nobody actually took the time to explain to people what the immigration figures really are and what the long term consequences of them will be.

[jeremyp]

It's not democratic to not put Brexit through now.

Democracy is about more than just having a vote.

[Bubbles]

Democracy is about more than just having a vote.

No it really isn't.

It's about having a fair vote and following the wishes of the majority.

If you think it isn't, then if Scotland goes for another referendum and votes to leave the UK, we can block them by telling them Democracy is more than just having a vote.


Think they will be convinced?

Because I don't.

It's the same thing.

It's just you don't agree with the leave campaign.

Well I don't agree with an independant Scotland, but I don't think I'd get away with pulling that one.

Do you?

I think Scotland leaving the uk us every bit as damaging to the uk as leaving the EU is and I feel about it pretty much as you do about the leave campaign.

But I do know what democracy is, and I don't think it's right to pull that one on Scotland either.

George Osborned summed up when he said " my country, right or wrong"

I think our government have taken that stance too.

David Cameron definately.

[BeRational]

Rose,

So you agree that London could vote to leave the UK as well, as that too would be democratic.

The majority view does not always prevail, other wise the death penalty might well be in place.

[Bubbles]

Clearly.

Nobody actually took the time to explain to people what the immigration figures really are and what the long term consequences of them will be.

Jeremy people go by what they experience.

Even I have noticed that when I visit my local supermarket the language around me isn't English. It's like being on holiday abroad.

As it happens I like the different cultures and we have a very multicultural atmosphere where I live with whole communities of Irish, Eastern European, Somalian and various communities.

Even the people I work with come from many different countries, only about 50% are English. If that.

I like it, because that's me.

But some find it threatening and I know people who voted leave because they felt it was out of hand.

I've discussed it.

Trying to make out its not a huge problem for them, or they are imagining it, makes it worse.

For years now people have been complaining that London has been taken over by foreigners, because when they go they don't meet very many English people.

I see it, it's a shame because I like different cultures.

But ignoring how and why people voted is making it worse.

I don't want people voting UKIP in, because they don't trust the other parties to listen to them.

I don't think the conservatives do either, which I think is why they have finally acknowledged the feeling in the uk and are trying to follow the wishes of the majority and squashing talk of a second referendum.

I think we have to be very careful not to empower UKIP.

[Bubbles]

Rose,

So you agree that London could vote to leave the UK as well, as that too would be democratic.

The majority view does not always prevail, other wise the death penalty might well be in place.

Ok

Provided we accept that Scotland cannot have independance because it is damaging to the rest of the Union no matter what majority of votes they have.

By the same rules, we cannot leave the EU because of the potential damage to us and them regardless of the majority vote.

I'd go for that! I voted remain. If I was only considering my POV.

But Scotland would have to give up the idea of independence. Because I'm applying the same rule.

See, I don't think Scotland is prepared to give up independance or the leave voters their democratically held referendum.

The problem too, is, you are disregarding a majority choice and doing  what you think is best for them.

Which isn't democratic, and is a bit patronising. 

I mean at the end of the day many leave voters are prepared to go through some hardship to have this country independant of the EU.

In the same way some Scots are prepared to struggle and have some hardship to have independance from the UK.

Have they both got the right to do that? If the majority voted yes. Can we judge if it's worth it to them?

Would I be patronising in thinking I had the right to stand in their way?

See I have this awful feeling I would be.

That's why if the majority vote they want something, even if you think they are wrong, sometimes you have to go with it.

Pick up the pieces if necessary.

I don't agree with Scotland becoming independant, I'm really against it.

But I'd think very long and hard about my right to block a majority vote of scots, even if it did harm the rest of the U.K. Because I think it's a bit patronising.

" oh I'm only doing it for your own good" sort of thing.

Can't help it!

On one level I can say ...go for it..... On the other it's not really fair and you are imposing your own views on a majority.

For me to do that to the "leave" voters or " Scotland" it's more dictatorship than democracy.

When should you ignore/block a majority vote for their own good ( or collective good)?

The answer to that is way too subjective.

 

Whatever it is, it isn't democracy 

People are ignored, no doubt.
We justify it for many reasons, like they are small, their location, how long they have been fighting for recognition, how different they are.

But ignoring the whole majority vote of the U.K.?

That's more dictatorship.

I can see that Scotland thinks they are being dictated to, but the popular stance is they are part of the U.K.

Therefore the overall result is the one that matters..

What a terrible mess!

[wigginhall]

On the other hand, London has a low UKIP vote, and voted mainly Remain, in my area, about 70%.   Also, areas with low immigration tended to vote Leave.   It's almost as if actual acquaintance with immigrants removes the fear and prejudice.