Would the World be better off without religion

[torridon]

Presumably most of the people voting that way don't have a religion anyway.  I don't think many people renounce their faith out of an aspiration to make the world a better place.

[floo]

What the bible foretold did arrive... Jesus Christ.

What Christ foretold and the Prophets have been happening....

It is you who have not arrived at the truth yet! All excuses and huff and puff on your part.
You don't know the bible or the teachings of the Prophets just rubbish and boring repetition of what other atheists have taught you.
At least God and Christ are original...

I reckon the stories surrounding Jesus were created to fit in with those so called 'prophecies'!

[Hope]

I reckon the stories surrounding Jesus were created to fit in with those so called 'prophecies'!

A suggestion that would have been pretty difficult to acheive, Floo.  After all, a lot of what he is reported as having done would have been outside of the authors' mindsets.

[floo]

A suggestion that would have been pretty difficult to acheive, Floo.  After all, a lot of what he is reported as having done would have been outside of the authors' mindsets.

The human imagination is a wonderful thing!

[Hope]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/guides/zcnm82p#zct79qt

The poll now stands at 84% who think the world would be more peaceful without religion.

Just saying!!!!

It would be interesting to know how the voting has gone on a daily or weekly basis since the poll was started.  Has the 'Yes' vote jumped every time there has been an atrocity such as the events of Nice, or Munich (remembering that the latter was initially highlighted as 'terrorist-related' by the media, with the authorities back-tracking on that yesterday).  It also suggests that many people have no idea of why some of humanity's worst wars even started - almost all to do with politics (such as the 2 World Wars, the Crimean War, the Korean War, the Boer War, the Sino-Japanese Wars, the American War of Independence and other independence campaigns - perhaps even the initial attempts to establish a Jewish state, etc.).

[Hope]

The human imagination is a wonderful thing!

I agree, but if you ever study it, it can only create things that are related to ideas already within the creator's mindset. 

[floo]

I agree, but if you ever study it, it can only create things that are related to ideas already within the creator's mindset.

Hmmmmmmmmmm! Anyway there is no way on earth the things attributed to Jesus are credible, surely he would have been quite a celeb among  all the people around at that time not just his followers. His family didn't seem to rate him very highly.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/guides/zcnm82p#zct79qt

The poll now stands at 84% who think the world would be more peaceful without religion.

Just saying!!!!

Argumentum ad populum.

[Hope]

Hmmmmmmmmmm! Anyway there is no way on earth the things attributed to Jesus are credible, surely he would have been quite a celeb among  all the people around at that time not just his followers. His family didn't seem to rate him very highly.

Precisely, Floo.  Your argument that "there is no way on earth the things attributed to Jesus are credible" is - in part - evidence that they couldn't have been 'made-up' because, from a merely human perspective, they wouldn't have been either credible or part of the psyche.

[floo]

Precisely, Floo.  Your argument that "there is no way on earth the things attributed to Jesus are credible" is - in part - evidence that they couldn't have been 'made-up' because, from a merely human perspective, they wouldn't have been either credible or part of the psyche.

People don't come back from the dead, you have no evidence whatsoever Jesus was resurrected. As I said before why did so few people see him alive, why didn't he stick around instead of conveniently disappearing skywards? Where is he today, why can't we see him? If my grandson, at the age of two, realised the concept of Jesus still being alive somewhere was not on, when he asked his mother why she believed in Jesus as she couldn't see, hear or feel him, surely adults should question it too?

[Brownie]

I imagine people who answered that poll have never been involved in a religion (I could be wrong about that, we'd need another poll to be certain).  I've heard people sound off about "Religion", who talk about the Northern Ireland troubles, especially when we had terrorist problems over here, and currently about Islam.  Also anything scandalous that appears in the news.

[Sassy]

Presumably most of the people voting that way don't have a religion anyway.  I don't think many people renounce their faith out of an aspiration to make the world a better place.

Would not really have a faith if they did that.
Nor can anyone with faith allow such a thing.

You don't see now Torridon, but in time you will see when evil tries to rid the world of religiion.
Then you will lose your freedom and you will be told what to do and when and no choice left.


And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

Can you not see that this is all about the bringing about of the end?

Sometimes the signs are not easy to see.

[Sebastian Toe]

Sometimes the signs are not easy to see.

a mark on everyone's forehead would be hard to miss!?

[floo]

a mark on everyone's forehead would be hard to miss!?

[jeremyp]

A suggestion that would have been pretty difficult to acheive, Floo.  After all, a lot of what he is reported as having done would have been outside of the authors' mindsets.

You don't half talk some bollocks.

[jeremyp]

I agree, but if you ever study it, it can only create things that are related to ideas already within the creator's mindset.

What in the gospels would have been outside the authors' mindsets. Please give examples and the approach you used to determine the authors' mindsets. In your answer, take into account that nobody knows who the authors actually were.

[Hope]

What in the gospels would have been outside the authors' mindsets. Please give examples and the approach you used to determine the authors' mindsets. In your answer, take into account that nobody knows who the authors actually were.

OK, the 1st century Jewish understanding of the Messiah was someone who would come as a politico-military leader.  This had been the case since the 5th or 6th century BC - but prior to that, the concept had been far more of a spiritual leader. Unless the authors of the Gospels had that level of theological training (which is unlikely in view of the dating of the material), that isn't something that would have been in the mindset of the early Jewish church leaders - fishermen and tax-collectors, etc.

Secondly, whilst the Jews did have an understanding of resurrection, it was not the 'instant' type that is recorded with the resurrection of Lazarus or Jesus, but something that went hand in hand with the end times.

That's two to start with.

[floo]

OK, the 1st century Jewish understanding of the Messiah was someone who would come as a politico-military leader.  This had been the case since the 5th or 6th century BC - but prior to that, the concept had been far more of a spiritual leader. Unless the authors of the Gospels had that level of theological training (which is unlikely in view of the dating of the material), that isn't something that would have been in the mindset of the early Jewish church leaders - fishermen and tax-collectors, etc.

Secondly, whilst the Jews did have an understanding of resurrection, it was not the 'instant' type that is recorded with the resurrection of Lazarus or Jesus, but something that went hand in hand with the end times.

That's two to start with.

Hmmmmmmmmmm! How do you know what the Jews thought about such matters so long ago?

[Brownie]

The Jewish people today have great respect for their history and traditions and which have been carried down from generation to generation.  Even those who are not religious will know a lot about it so it isn't surprising that they have an idea of how Jewish people felt way back in time, and we have learned it from them.

[jeremyp]

OK, the 1st century Jewish understanding of the Messiah was someone who would come as a politico-military leader.  This had been the case since the 5th or 6th century BC - but prior to that, the concept had been far more of a spiritual leader.

So what? Unless you are claiming that, in the first century, nobody was aware of the concept of a spiritual messiah, your argument doesn't float.

Unless the authors of the Gospels had that level of theological training (which is unlikely in view of the dating of the material), that isn't something that would have been in the mindset of the early Jewish church leaders - fishermen and tax-collectors, etc.

This is just an assertion. You can't say that nobody knew of the concept of a spiritual messiah. Clearly, they did or nobody would have come up with the idea.

Secondly, whilst the Jews did have an understanding of resurrection, it was not the 'instant' type that is recorded with the resurrection of Lazarus or Jesus,

Really? I don't believe that for a minute. Got any evidence that it was impossible for the people who lived in the area to think of an "instantaneous" resurrection. Don't forget they would have been exposed to Greek, Roman and Egyptian mythology all of which contained such resurrections.

[jeremyp]

The Jewish people today have great respect for their history and traditions and which have been carried down from generation to generation.  Even those who are not religious will know a lot about it so it isn't surprising that they have an idea of how Jewish people felt way back in time, and we have learned it from them.

Which would mean that Hope's idea that they had forgotten about the spiritual messiah thing is completely fallacious.

[Nearly Sane]

The Jewish people today have great respect for their history and traditions and which have been carried down from generation to generation.  Even those who are not religious will know a lot about it so it isn't surprising that they have an idea of how Jewish people felt way back in time, and we have learned it from them.

so given that, and given that they don't think Christianity is true, then by that logic you think Hope's position that it was outside the writer"s mindset is incorrect.


(BTW I note that Hioe has ignored the whole question of the lack of knowledge about who wrote the Gospels)

[jeremyp]

(BTW I note that Hioe has ignored the whole question of the lack of knowledge about who wrote the Gospels)

Indeed. It is entirely possible that some of the gospel writers weren't Jewish and it is a racing certainty that they were exposed to cultures and ideas from outside of the Jewish World. There is an argument, for example, that Mark lived in Rome. If that was the case, he would have been well aware of a lot of non-Jewish religious and philosophical ideas.

Also, whoever wrote John was well aware of Greek philosophical ideas like The Logos.

[Hope]

So what? Unless you are claiming that, in the first century, nobody was aware of the concept of a spiritual messiah, your argument doesn't float.

The Jews took a great interest in education and educating their children, but until they were 12 or 13, this was concerned with preparing them for everyday life.  It was only after that age, when a select few studied more complex and arguably more abstract things that the Torah and other such material was studied deeper. 

This is just an assertion. You can't say that nobody knew of the concept of a spiritual messiah. Clearly, they did or nobody would have come up with the idea.

I never said that "nobody knew of the concept of a spiritual messiah" - that's you putting words on my fingertips (as it were).  What I said was that the ordinary person wouldn't have gone into that theological depth in their education.

Really? I don't believe that for a minute. Got any evidence that it was impossible for the people who lived in the area to think of an "instantaneous" resurrection. Don't forget they would have been exposed to Greek, Roman and Egyptian mythology all of which contained such resurrections.

I am fully aware that such cultures had such beliefs, but let's take our own context.  I don't know the distance between your home and your nearest Hindu or Muslim family, but just how much do you know about such people's understanding and belief systems?  Then remember that the Jews - especially the ordinary people of Jesus' time - would have been far less interested in non-Jewish thinking than we are of anything comparable.

[Brownie]

Which would mean that Hope's idea that they had forgotten about the spiritual messiah thing is completely fallacious.

Well it is an idea.  I don't know if it is fallacious or not.  "Where there are two Jews, there are three opinions";   no doubt that has always been so.  Today there are Jewish groups who believe the Messiah has been on earth and physically died, they are highly spiritual, believe in an afterlife and are preparing for Armageddon.  Others, equally sophisticated, believe quite differently.   The ancient stories and traditions have been handed down to each generation but, like many religious groups, they part company because different emphases are placed on the ancient teachings.

We'd really have to ask some Jewish people, a pity we don't have some posting on here, but I can guarantee we'd get several answers.

Christians place different emphases on Jewish teachings, some of which would be unrecognisable to Jewish people.