The politics of empathy - Istanbul

[Nearly Sane]

Are we just distracted by the farce of our own political system, grieving for Brexit, or is Istanbul a bit far away and foreign? I have to admit that while I watched the news on the atrocity, I felt a sort of twinge of 'just another massacre' . It's almost as this one had nothing to mark it out as 'special' which is in itself shocking.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Sane,

I am guilty as charged, in my defence ( which is no defence ) I am a spineless, gutless, miserable human being, if this post was directed at my God, I would be asking for forgiveness, forgive me Father for being a miserable sinner, your children are being slaughtered in the street and all I can think about is my own little personal world.

Gonnagle.

[Brownie]

Nice one Gonnagle.

NS, we are preoccupied atm.  Indeed, Brexit has taken our minds off other things that have happened very recently, such as the Orlando killings and Jo Cox's murder, which we discussed at length on here before the referendum.  We just can't get it all in proportion right now.

It's natural NS but it won't last, we do care about Istanbul albeit at a distance atm and will care even more in the future.

[Nearly Sane]

Nice one Gonnagle.

NS, we are preoccupied atm.  Indeed, Brexit has taken our minds off other things that have happened very recently, such as the Orlando killings and Jo Cox's murder, which we discussed at length on here before the referendum.  We just can't get it all in proportion right now.

It's natural NS but it won't last, we do care about Istanbul albeit at a distance atm and will care even more in the future.

We create threads on multiple topics without any difficulty. We hold discussions for variable amounts of time. There is much more coverage of certain massacres rather than others. I sincerely doubt this idea of retrospective caring because there will always be something new.


I think it is way more complex than just preoccupation with Brexit.

[Brownie]

You may be right, is it because we care more about stuff that affects us personally?  I don't know NS.

[Nearly Sane]

You may be right, is it because we care more about stuff that affects us personally?  I don't know NS.

Neither do I, which is the point of the thread. Even the idea of what affects us personally is an unclear position. I am regularly in Paris and have gone to gigs at the Bataclan but did that make the Paris murders more persinalz? After allit's not that long ago that I was in Istanbul, and yet somehow the murders there are not quite as poignant to me. In part that may be because of how things play in the news cycle though that feels almost as much an effect as a cause.


It's related to the issue with Owen Jones on Sky after the Orlando murders. To an extent his comment that the presenter and Julia Hartley Brewer could get it because they weren't gay was correct. If someone from Istanbul told that I couldn't feel the same way about what happened as they did, then it would be likely true.


Just to note there have been a series of such atrocities in Turkey this year and not all happened when we were Brexit obsessed but the coverage has been very low key comparatively. I suspect there is in part an attitude that we somehow expect it. And this is the case in some ways with why Orlando got so much coverage - not only was it against a specific target of a gay club but with added Islam and the biggest death toll. That last fact being used in an often sensationalist manner.

[SqueakyVoice]

Are we just distracted by the farce of our own political system, grieving for Brexit, or is Istanbul a bit far away and foreign? I have to admit that while I watched the news on the atrocity, I felt a sort of twinge of 'just another massacre' . It's almost as this one had nothing to mark it out as 'special' which is in itself shocking.

We've just had six weeks of one side of the debate telling us to be scared that the turks are coming and the other side saying we wouldn't need to be scared until the year 3000.

The narrative that Turkey shares a common foe with the rest of Europe (inc the UK) isn't likely to find much traction in these overly simplistic times.

[Brownie]

Squeaky Voice and NS, your posts have given me much food for thought and I have been pondering this topic ever since I first noticed it.
I wonder why Turkey is generally viewed so unsympathetically by EU countries (especially when you consider how so many people love to go there for package holidays). 

[ad_orientem]

Squeaky Voice and NS, your posts have given me much food for thought and I have been pondering this topic ever since I first noticed it.
I wonder why Turkey is generally viewed so unsympathetically by EU countries (especially when you consider how so many people love to go there for package holidays).

Because for much of their history the Turk tried to conquer Christian Europe. Now they are IS's biggest supporters.

[Brownie]

I know about the former, ad_o but most countries have brutal history, I don't think that is relevant now.  Your second point has some relevance of course.

Whilst pondering on this topic I found the following article which is very old (9 years approx), but interesting nonetheless.  Written by Boris no less.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/features/3631590/Why-are-we-so-afraid-of-Turkey.html

[wigginhall]

Turkey possibly also plugs into old-fashioned Orientialism, e.g.  the image of the dark and seductive Other, who is dangerous also, and carries one of those curved daggers in their knickers, so you're not sure if you really want to lower them, (the knickers).

Today it's expressed more in terms of foreign rapists, Islamic terrorists, non-European, darkness, although still seen as exotic enough for a holiday.   They're a 'them'.

[Brownie]

I can't say I've ever thought of Turkish people as stereotypical rapists.  That never occurred to me but then I've known several Turks so I suppose I wouldn't.

[wigginhall]

I can't say I've ever thought of Turkish people as stereotypical rapists.  That never occurred to me but then I've known several Turks so I suppose I wouldn't.

You're probably not prone to fantasies about foreigners being dark and dangerous and alien.   Well, believe it or not, some people are, and think they should be kept out in reality, thus mixing up fantasy and reality. 

[Gordon]

Are we just distracted by the farce of our own political system, grieving for Brexit, or is Istanbul a bit far away and foreign? I have to admit that while I watched the news on the atrocity, I felt a sort of twinge of 'just another massacre' . It's almost as this one had nothing to mark it out as 'special' which is in itself shocking.

I think one of the of the problems of instant reporting can be the agenda of those doing the reporting, which can see whatever editorial policy decides the 'lead story' is overwhelm other issues that are also worthy of being reported, and if people stick to their favourite news providers only then they are, in a sense, being censored. Of late I've found the focus on Boris excessive and undeserved: and I do hope 'doing a Boris' becomes a cliche for those whose aspirations are thankfully thwarted, since the schadenfreude in this case was glorious.

Sometimes though the lead story isn't trivial. I remember from a year or so ago the footage of a local policeman or soldier carrying the body of a drowned migrant boy, who was roughly the same age as my younger grandson is now, across a beach somewhere - and that was, in contrast, powerful and meaningful news reporting that stopped me in my tracks and graphically reminded me (and still reminds me) that these 'migrants' are in fact people: just like me (and my grandson). 

[Brownie]

You're probably not prone to fantasies about foreigners being dark and dangerous and alien.   Well, believe it or not, some people are, and think they should be kept out in reality, thus mixing up fantasy and reality.

No I am not prone to such fantasies (despite having been followed around by a grown up Turkish man who lived around the corner to me, when I was 13), and believe me I have had many fantasies!

It's a shame that people can't see others as individuals.  Yet they must know loads of folk who are of Turkish origin or are part Turkish, there are plenty here.  I think even Boris has some Turkish ancestry.

[wigginhall]

No I am not prone to such fantasies (despite having been followed around by a grown up Turkish man who lived around the corner to me, when I was 13), and believe me I have had many fantasies!

It's a shame that people can't see others as individuals.  Yet they must know loads of folk who are of Turkish origin or are part Turkish, there are plenty here.  I think even Boris has some Turkish ancestry.

I think nearly everybody has fantasies, but some people find it difficult to separate them from everyday life, and then politicians are able to exploit that to a degree.   For example, there are often utopian fantasies present in politics, everything will be a sunshiny day.

[Brownie]

Yup.  Another common fantasy is that life was better in the old days.  I don't know what planet they are on.

[Nearly Sane]

And another 125 dead in Baghdad. But no wave of people changing their avatars on social media.

[Bubbles]

Perhaps somehow they are seen as aggressors, they did invade Cyprus illegally and still hold a whole city to which no one has been able to return to and is still empty from the 1970s.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/cyprus/11038580/Famagusta-the-ghost-town-at-the-heart-of-Cyprus.html

Having seen the ghost town and peered through the fence and talked to Greek Cypriots and hearing how thousands of loved ones " disappeared" it did affect how I perceived Turkey.

It's still not resolved today.

I think not everyone wants them in the EU because it is still an unresolved issue and people ( Greeks) still cannot go home and what happened to their 1500 loved ones is still unknown.

Turkey is still unrepentant and holds the city and doesn't give access.

I suspect the relatives are buried in it.

To give it up would reveal their guilt.

As aggressors perhaps the sympathy for them is slightly less.

They still won't resolve the ghost city or try and explain where the missing people went.

There were children among the missing, parents brothers and sisters wondering what happened to them.

Going and seeing it myself and talking to local people, did effect my perception of Turkey.

I don't think they are altogether trusted not among all EU members.

Perhaps people we have conflict with, lessens our sympathy.

[Nearly Sane]

And none of the dead did any of that.

[Bubbles]

And none of the dead did any of that.

No I know.

Most Turks didn't do any of that.

Just like many of us had nothing to do with bombing civilians in Afganistan.

But it affects how they regard us.

Hence the hatred for " the west"

Perhaps it's something we humans do, that is unconscious.

A survival reaction perhaps.

We feel less for those we dont feel a bond with.

I can't think of another reason other than distance.