The Brexiters shit on the country again

[jeremyp]

I wouldn't go as far as to say that the UK is on the path to destruction - certainly not economically, although it may well cease to exist in a few yours time due to the brexit vote if Scotland becomes independent.

I see it as inevitable that Scotland will leave the Union if Brexit goes through. That is the sense in which I meant the UK will be destroyed.

But we are in for a real hit on the economy and there will be job losses, companies going out of business, decreased investment, worsening of personal income and major strain on the public finances.

And Jakswan and his fellow co-brexit voters 'own' every single job loss, every hit on pensions, every increase in cost of living, every cut in public expenditure etc etc as a result of the vote. Every one. And that's of course why he doesn't want to accept the reality because to do so requires him to accept the responsibility. And that is why it is the duty of every remain voter to remind brexit voters constantly that they are responsible for the storm, that they own every single brexit induced negative effect.

That's pretty much exactly my opinion.

[ProfessorDavey]

I see it as inevitable that Scotland will leave the Union if Brexit goes through. That is the sense in which I meant the UK will be destroyed.

That is highly likely - destroyed is a bit of an emotive term though - perhaps cease to exist is better.

[jakswan]

I wouldn't go as far as to say that the UK is on the path to destruction - certainly not economically, although it may well cease to exist in a few yours time due to the brexit vote if Scotland becomes independent.

But we are in for a real hit on the economy and there will be job losses, companies going out of business, decreased investment, worsening of personal income and major strain on the public finances.

And Jakswan and his fellow co-brexit voters 'own' every single job loss, every hit on pensions, every increase in cost of living, every cut in public expenditure etc etc as a result of the vote. Every one. And that's of course why he doesn't want to accept the reality because to do so requires him to accept the responsibility. And that is why it is the duty of every remain voter to remind brexit voters constantly that they are responsible for the storm, that they own every single brexit induced negative effect.

I think Jack Knave is more your level of debate, by your logic you campaigned for Tony Blair, how does hundreds of thousands of people dead rest with being your responsibility?

The fact is in a democracy you campaign for a position and try to convince the majority the position is correct. A failure to convince the majority is as much a failure of you as it is of the voters. Changing peoples minds is key which is what I'd focus on if I were you, I know changing your mind it hard for you to fathom but I do it a lot.

With regard to leaving the EU I'm still for leave, quite happy with a Norway type deal, and be open to another referendum once we know more.

[jeremyp]

I think Jack Knave is more your level of debate, by your logic you campaigned for Tony Blair, how does hundreds of thousands of people dead rest with being your responsibility?

This thread isn't about the Gulf War.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

I wouldn't go as far as to say that the UK is on the path to destruction - certainly not economically, although it may well cease to exist in a few yours time due to the brexit vote if Scotland becomes independent.

But we are in for a real hit on the economy and there will be job losses, companies going out of business, decreased investment, worsening of personal income and major strain on the public finances.

And Jakswan and his fellow co-brexit voters 'own' every single job loss, every hit on pensions, every increase in cost of living, every cut in public expenditure etc etc as a result of the vote. Every one. And that's of course why he doesn't want to accept the reality because to do so requires him to accept the responsibility. And that is why it is the duty of every remain voter to remind brexit voters constantly that they are responsible for the storm, that they own every single brexit induced negative effect.

As a Remain voter, my impression of Jakswan was that he thought there were other considerations that were as important as economic considerations or more important e.g. not having to get the agreement of other EU members before the UK can put the brakes on immigration to the UK. IME people generally do not make decisions based on economic considerations alone.

The Remain arguments that were less hyperbolic were probably a lot more convincing to Leave voters - I have spoken to a few people who changed their minds and voted Remain and they said they did so because they tried to weigh up the actual issues in a less emotional frame of mind and steeled themselves to vote for what they thought was the least bad option.

I don't know about other ethnic minority communities but a lot of fairly recent young Sri Lankan immigrants I have spoken, who were employed in offices, banks or in jobs such as driving TFL buses said they voted Leave because they had seen the standard of living in their areas fall. They were pretty pragmatic about being viewed as racist - they were more interested in solving the issue of over-crowding and increased waiting times than worrying about being racist.

It's a more complex issue than economics - e.g. you would think that people would not have a problem with immigrants who were in well-paid jobs and contributing to the economy. Some doctors working in NHS hospitals said immigrants were not the main strain on the NHS - it was the elderly and issues like obesity and Type 2 Diabetes.

Whereas some of those working in GP or Dental practices blamed EU regulations about migrant access to the job market and their own government's funding cuts for some of the frustrations of their jobs such as increased responsibilities e.g. supervising or hiring EU doctors or trainees who did not have the same level of training/ qualifications or local cultural knowledge as British-educated and trained doctors, dentists and nurses. They said they would rather have the option to hire better-qualified non-Europeans. Or they would rather their government funded more places at British medical schools for British students.

[floo]

The truth is that my great uncle was an original Desert Rat.

The other fact is that the reason they came into the war did matter.

Though financially we were left in debt to the USA the truth does matter and it does not change anything I said.

(((((In truth it is a fact that GOD used this country to bring the Jews back to Israel and to win the war against a tyrant. Without the faith element it still does not change the facts that what I said is true.)))))

A FACT, really?

[jakswan]

As a Remain voter, my impression of Jakswan was that he thought there were other considerations that were as important as economic considerations or more important e.g. not having to get the agreement of other EU members before the UK can put the brakes on immigration to the UK. IME people generally do not make decisions based on economic considerations alone.

Your example is wrong but point is correct. The main reasons were about political union, demographic deficit, ability to create our free trade deals. You are right there were economic considerations and although Davey's credible reports had an agenda which undermined their credibility I still read them and took them into account. After all they all claimed if we left the EU we would still be richer than we are now by 2030.

Davey and others will all say that is not the important claim but it was important to me and my vote.

The Remain arguments that were less hyperbolic were probably a lot more convincing to Leave voters - I have spoken to a few people who changed their minds and voted Remain and they said they did so because they tried to weigh up the actual issues in a less emotional frame of mind and steeled themselves to vote for what they thought was the least bad option.

The Leave arguments that were less hyperbolic were probably a lot more convincing to Remain voters <insert anecdote to support claim here>.

I don't know about other ethnic minority communities but a lot of fairly recent young Sri Lankan immigrants I have spoken, who were employed in offices, banks or in jobs such as driving TFL buses said they voted Leave because they had seen the standard of living in their areas fall. They were pretty pragmatic about being viewed as racist - they were more interested in solving the issue of over-crowding and increased waiting times than worrying about being racist.

Not met meany people who are pragmatic about being viewed as racist, interesting.

It's a more complex issue than economics - e.g. you would think that people would not have a problem with immigrants who were in well-paid jobs and contributing to the economy. Some doctors working in NHS hospitals said immigrants were not the main strain on the NHS - it was the elderly and issues like obesity and Type 2 Diabetes.

Don't really disagree but the strain on the NHS is going to be directly related to the services it offers and the total population, if people are fat, get diabetes and die young they are not going to get old and get dementia.

You can argue that with better healthcare and healthy living that there is a demographic problem but if we have an issue with human population this is a phase we are going to need to go through. Lets say you need 5 people working paying taxes to support one retired and currently we have 4, importing an extra 1 solves the issue for now, but fast forward 30 years you have an extra person retiring..... not sure.

[Sassy]

Jeremy is absolutely correct that the brexit vote is already having a negative impact on scientific research in the UK, it isn't drivel.

Now I don't know what you do Jakswan, but I am a research scientist and in a senior position within a research intensive university so part of my role is providing strategic management of the research activities. So I know what I'm talking about.

Really! Give us your field and position and I can check you out. My aunt was a senior lecturer and my brother-in-law a maths lecturer at university. So give us your title and university and we can check you out

So since the brexit vote there have been a significant number of instances where researchers in my institution have found they are no longer welcome in developing consortiums that are aiming at applying for EU funding in the newer future.

Well it would be difficult if we are no longer in the EU. But there is nothing stopping you applying for Government funding still... is there?

We are being excluded, and you can understand why. If you are putting together a consortium and one partner may no longer be eligible for the funding then that is a big risk - if they cannot participate then the ability of the overall consortium to deliver is compromised.

Basically, you are saying the scientist all too thick to do research individually. Have to do it collective together. Grow up.

Actually I have been asked, formally to keep a dossier of such occurrences, with the information to be submitted to the minister for universities and science.

So the people who would minister you don't know what you apply for. Sounds really dumb to me they need you to tell them what they should already know?

Brexit has also had a chilling effect on recruitment and retention. Top scientists are often more than happy to relocate internationally to the best place to support their research ambitions.

Excellent so the research will still be done...

Although we haven't lost anyone yet I am aware of colleagues who are reactively looking to relocate into the remaining EU.

Why? are they the ones who cannot do it on their own?

Also in interviews earlier this week the issue of brexit was brought up by all the candidates as an issue of importance in their decision as to whether to take a position in the UK or elsewhere.

Well,if they cannot do it on their own or are not up to the Job. Best they relocate we need scientist who can think and act for themselves.
[/quote]

[jeremyp]

Oh dear, the farmers have realised they are up shit creek

http://www.farminguk.com/News/Farmers-who-voted-Brexit-now-at-dismay-due-to-thr-_42580.html?refer_id=1900

Just like Wales

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-wales-vote-leave-eu-referendum-result-brussels-funding-economy-a7136196.html

and people trying to sell houses in London

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/revealed-how-thousands-of-house-deals-collapsed-in-london-due-to-brexit-a3305526.html

[SusanDoris]

Oh dear, the farmers have realised they are up shit creek

http://www.farminguk.com/News/Farmers-who-voted-Brexit-now-at-dismay-due-to-thr-_42580.html?refer_id=1900

I have read the article - very interesting - and quite a few of the comments too - including the one about the fishing industry.

I learned yesterday that my local MP, a brexiter, has been relegated to a small office somewhere instead of one overlooking (or maybe in) Admiralty Arch. Okay, he's still a good MP, but ...

[Sebastian Toe]

Really! Give us your field and position and I can check you out. My aunt was a senior lecturer and my brother-in-law a maths lecturer at university. So give us your title and university and we can check you out

You will, of course, to be fair - give your aunt's and brother-in-law's titles and universities in order that they can be checked out as well. Won't you?

[Bubbles]

Oh dear, the farmers have realised they are up shit creek

http://www.farminguk.com/News/Farmers-who-voted-Brexit-now-at-dismay-due-to-thr-_42580.html?refer_id=1900

Just like Wales

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-wales-vote-leave-eu-referendum-result-brussels-funding-economy-a7136196.html

and people trying to sell houses in London

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/revealed-how-thousands-of-house-deals-collapsed-in-london-due-to-brexit-a3305526.html

You know I think you are enjoying being a misery guts 

[Aruntraveller]

Basically, you are saying the scientist all too thick to do research individually. Have to do it collective together. Grow up.

You really know nothing. Working collectively is what science is all about. If there was a God he/she would be rolling his eyes that he/she managed to produce someone as monumentally deluded as you appear to be.

[jeremyp]

You know I think you are enjoying being a misery guts 

There's no point in hiding the consequences of this terrible decision under the carpet.

I'm not going to pretend everything is sweetness and light just because some turkeys voted for Christmas.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Sass,

Basically, you are saying the scientist all too thick to do research individually. Have to do it collective together. Grow up.

You really should look deeper into this subject, the major leaps in science over the past ten years is because scientists have learned that sharing their knowledge for the good of humanity is the way forward, any steps that stop scientists sharing, i.e British scientists being cut out of the loop in EU funding is harming our own scientific research.

The evidence is all out there, or you could just read a ProfDavey post on the subject.

Gonnagle.

[Bubbles]

There's no point in hiding the consequences of this terrible decision under the carpet.

I'm not going to pretend everything is sweetness and light just because some turkeys voted for Christmas.

No, but you are claiming things are Brexit related when they are not, so IMO your world view is very biased. (Lloyds bank being a prime example)

I don't doubt, for scientists it is going to be a negative outcome for a while , until they can obtain alternative funding.

A lot of negativity comes about because people don't like change.

[JP]

Any examples of changes that have taken place in science of farming. Seems a bit early coinsidering we are still a fully paid up member of the EU.

[jeremyp]

No, but you are claiming things are Brexit related when they are not, so IMO your world view is very biased. (Lloyds bank being a prime example)

It's Lloyds Bank that is claiming their redundancies are Brexit related, not me.

I don't doubt, for scientists it is going to be a negative outcome for a while , until they can obtain alternative funding.

Where's that going to come from? The mythical £350 million?

Anyway, it is not simply about the funding, it's also about the cooperation. Please read the Prof's posts on the subject, you might find them educational.

A lot of negativity comes about because people don't like change.

And quit with the platitudes.

Not all change is good. When your car hits a solid wall at 70mph, it changes. But only losers who don't like change would hit the brakes.

[jeremyp]

Any examples of changes that have taken place in science of farming. Seems a bit early coinsidering we are still a fully paid up member of the EU.

But we can see that when we stop being fully paid up members of the EU, all those lovely EU grants for science and farming and Wales and Cornwall.

Wales and Cornwall both voted overwhelmingly to quit the EU. That must mean that they presumably don't want the grants any more.

We don't know how scientists and farmers voted because it was a secret ballot, but any farmer or scientist who voted to Leave surely doesn't want those lovely EU grant anymore.

Or perhaps somebody lied to them about the money being replaced.

[Sassy]

You will, of course, to be fair - give your aunt's and brother-in-law's titles and universities in order that they can be checked out as well. Won't you?

They are not here claiming their position. I am asking the other person to prove their credentials not my aunt or brother-in-law. They are not here and not relying on their positions for anything.
Because I gave the means of checking it takes nothing away from him proving his credentials.

[Sassy]

You know I think you are enjoying being a misery guts 

More like a toilet... takes everything in...LOL.

I cannot believe he thinks they will harm the country themselves.
No one really know what is going to happen but they don't believe it will that bad now..

[Sassy]

Dear Sass,

You really should look deeper into this subject, the major leaps in science over the past ten years is because scientists have learned that sharing their knowledge for the good of humanity is the way forward, any steps that stop scientists sharing, i.e British scientists being cut out of the loop in EU funding is harming our own scientific research.

The evidence is all out there, or you could just read a ProfDavey post on the subject.

Gonnagle.

So tell me Gonnagle what God teaches about the beginning and the end?
Does it actually affect anything he teaches? Gonnagle you are out of touch.

[jeremyp]

They are not here and not relying on their positions for anything.

No. But you are.

So we can assume these scientists you claim you know are inventions. They don't exist.

[Sassy]

No. But you are.

So we can assume these scientists you claim you know are inventions. They don't exist.

What scientist. What are you talking about?
I haven't a clue what you are talking about? EXPLAIN BECAUSE I MADE NO REFERENCE TO SCIENTIST THE OTHER PERSON SAID HE WAS A SCIENTIST...

I wanted to check his credentials. Haven't referred to any scientist I know. Sebastian Toe was like yourself. absolutely no idea what was being discussed.

[jeremyp]

What scientist. What are you talking about?
I haven't a clue what you are talking about? EXPLAIN BECAUSE I MADE NO REFERENCE TO SCIENTIST THE OTHER PERSON SAID HE WAS A SCIENTIST...

I wanted to check his credentials. Haven't referred to any scientist I know. Sebastian Toe was like yourself. absolutely no idea what was being discussed.

You said your aunt is a senior lecturer and your brother in law is a mathematician. If they are not scientists, why did you bring them up.