The Brexiters shit on the country again

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Your example is wrong but point is correct. The main reasons were about political union, demographic deficit, ability to create our free trade deals. You are right there were economic considerations and although Davey's credible reports had an agenda which undermined their credibility I still read them and took them into account. After all they all claimed if we left the EU we would still be richer than we are now by 2030.

Davey and others will all say that is not the important claim but it was important to me and my vote.

It's certainly going to be interesting to watch what Leave do with trade negotiations and free movement of labour. Presumably some Remain groups will utilise the media to publish their own inaccurate claims or criticise from the sidelines, as the Leave campaign did.

Wondering also how Leave navigate less political union, more fragmentation within the UK and Europe as diverse groups want their views taken into consideration in decision-making. Whether we will see more social activists taking direct action - like the releasing of cockroaches at Byron Burger as a protest against crack downs on illegal immigration. Or maybe that was a protest against big businesses. It will be interesting to see if in the midst of Brexit there can be a perception of national freedom and a curb on immigration and profits by big businesses that ordinary people will feel more than compensates them for short-term job losses or hits to the economy.

Not met meany people who are pragmatic about being viewed as racist, interesting.

Well, not talking about racial violence but IME people from ethnic minority groups are not too bothered about expressing racist views to each other amongst their own communities - they are quite open about wanting to preserve certain aspects of their culture, which they have an emotional attachment to or feel is superior, rather than adopt cultural behaviour or attitudes from another ethnic group. And again IME they can equally understand why people from other ethnic backgrounds (including white English/ Welsh / Scottish/ Irish) might feel the same way about their own cultures and sub-cultures.

I support tolerance - it can be liberating not having to be PC - sentences tend to be shorter and to the point, and often quite funny. I was surprised to be asked by the parent (white English) of my daughter's friend, whether it was ok to let her child watch the comedy, Citizen Khan, as they thought it was racist or anti-Muslim in some way. My kid regularly watches it and many other programmes that poke fun at every group, including white English people.

Don't really disagree but the strain on the NHS is going to be directly related to the services it offers and the total population, if people are fat, get diabetes and die young they are not going to get old and get dementia.

You can argue that with better healthcare and healthy living that there is a demographic problem but if we have an issue with human population this is a phase we are going to need to go through. Lets say you need 5 people working paying taxes to support one retired and currently we have 4, importing an extra 1 solves the issue for now, but fast forward 30 years you have an extra person retiring..... not sure.

I think the problem for the NHS is that people have higher expectations for management of ill-health and at the same time don't die quickly enough (putting emotions aside). I think the ethics around competing claims for increases in expensive medical technology and expensive drugs, long-term treatment options and research is the issue as opposed to immigration so I think it's a shame there were false statements made about the NHS and immigration to influence the vote during the Brexit campaign. As opposed to focusing on options such as the ethics of withdrawing treatments or letting people die to free up resources, manage resources more efficiently or get in more tax payers (immigrants) today to delay the inevitable of having to eventually privatise a lot of the NHS treatments.

Efficiency seems to be a problem for Britain, which is often the reason why it is not competitive in the manufacturing sector.  I'm not sure which is more palatable to the voters out of curbing immigration, raising personal taxes, not withdrawing NHS treatments and research OR curbing immigration, not raising personal taxes and withdrawing many NHS treatments and research. 

[jakswan]

Well, not talking about racial violence but IME people from ethnic minority groups are not too bothered about expressing racist views to each other amongst their own communities - they are quite open about wanting to preserve certain aspects of their culture, which they have an emotional attachment to or feel is superior, rather than adopt cultural behaviour or attitudes from another ethnic group. And again IME they can equally understand why people from other ethnic backgrounds (including white English/ Welsh / Scottish/ Irish) might feel the same way about their own cultures and sub-cultures.

So by saying that ethnic minority groups are more likely to be racist you are in fact a racist. Is culture based on race, you can be any race and belong to any culture can't you?

I support tolerance - it can be liberating not having to be PC - sentences tend to be shorter and to the point, and often quite funny. I was surprised to be asked by the parent (white English) of my daughter's friend, whether it was ok to let her child watch the comedy, Citizen Khan, as they thought it was racist or anti-Muslim in some way. My kid regularly watches it and many other programmes that poke fun at every group, including white English people.

Being anti-Muslim isn't about race, I think you are confusing the issue, the "white English" teacher could have been any race and asked the same question, they might not have asked if they were Muslim and white. Its sad you identify the color of persons skin that you think it somehow dictates their behavior.

I think the problem for the NHS is that people have higher expectations for management of ill-health and at the same time don't die quickly enough (putting emotions aside). I think the ethics around competing claims for increases in expensive medical technology and expensive drugs, long-term treatment options and research is the issue as opposed to immigration so I think it's a shame there were false statements made about the NHS and immigration to influence the vote during the Brexit campaign. As opposed to focusing on options such as the ethics of withdrawing treatments or letting people die to free up resources, manage resources more efficiently or get in more tax payers (immigrants) today to delay the inevitable of having to eventually privatise a lot of the NHS treatments.

Think I agree, whilst higher immigration does add demands to NHS it also adds a resource in Doctors and nurses. What false statements were made during the Brexit campaign, I seem to recall remain stated the NHS would be under resourced without immigration, which is a fair argument.

Efficiency seems to be a problem for Britain, which is often the reason why it is not competitive in the manufacturing sector.  I'm not sure which is more palatable to the voters out of curbing immigration, raising personal taxes, not withdrawing NHS treatments and research OR curbing immigration, not raising personal taxes and withdrawing many NHS treatments and research.

Not aware it was that much of an issue.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

So by saying that ethnic minority groups are more likely to be racist you are in fact a racist. Is culture based on race, you can be any race and belong to any culture can't you?

I didn't say ethnic minority groups are more likely to be racist - I said IME people from ethnic minority groups ....well you can read my previous post for yourself I assume. But if in your view, you think what I wrote means that I am "in fact a racist" that's absolutely fine with me, I have no problem with being called racist for my interpretation of my experiences.

Not sure I get your point about culture and race. My point was that IME people from ethnic minorities do not feel too troubled by wanting to retain certain parts of their culture - I didn't specify what those parts of their culture were or whether those parts of their culture were linked to their race. Nor have I made generalisations about people from ethnic minorities - I am specifically talking about my interpretation of my experiences e.g. parents who were relieved that I was just their son's friend and not their girlfriend, because I was the "wrong" ethnic background. I also didn't say that culture is based on race.

Being anti-Muslim isn't about race, I think you are confusing the issue, the "white English" teacher could have been any race and asked the same question, they might not have asked if they were Muslim and white. Its sad you identify the color of persons skin that you think it somehow dictates their behavior.

It wasn't a teacher - it was the parent of my daughter's friend. Um ok, I don't recall writing that a person's skin colour dictates their behaviour - but if you want to feel sad because you choose to believe I did write that, ok.

Anyway, back to my point - my impression was that the parent was worried about laughing at the behaviour and statements made by  Mr. Khan because he was Muslim and brown and had a Pakistani accent, especially as the kids, including my own, were imitating the accent - and she spoke to me about it because I was brown and Muslim and she wanted to know if I was offended by it. There actually isn't too much in the comedy that is specific to Muslims - Mr Khan's daughter wears hijab but I have come across similar attitudes and accents in many brown, Indian/ Pakistani families regardless of whether they are Hindu, Sikh etc - I guess you haven't seen the sitcom. I haven't come across any white-skinned people with Mr. Khan's Pakistani accent - other than my daughter's friends imitating him - but not ruling out the possibility that they may well exist.

Think I agree, whilst higher immigration does add demands to NHS it also adds a resource in Doctors and nurses. What false statements were made during the Brexit campaign, I seem to recall remain stated the NHS would be under resourced without immigration, which is a fair argument.

Some Leave campaigners claimed £350 million a week saved by coming out of the EU could be used to fund the NHS. Another claim was Migration from the European Union will increase the UK's population by between 2.58 million and 5.23 million by 2030. This would create a 28% to 57% increase in demand for A&E services.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36345081

Not aware it was that much of an issue.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita

Productivity in GB lags behind most other G7 countries.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/apr/01/uk-productivity-growth-is-weakest-since-wwii-says-ons
https://fullfact.org/europe/factcheck-are-british-workers-less-productive-germans-and-french/

[jakswan]

It wasn't a teacher - it was the parent of my daughter's friend. Um ok, I don't recall writing that a person's skin colour dictates their behaviour - but if you want to feel sad because you choose to believe I did write that, ok.

Anyway, back to my point - my impression was that the parent was worried about laughing at the behaviour and statements made by  Mr. Khan because he was Muslim and brown and had a Pakistani accent, especially as the kids, including my own, were imitating the accent - and she spoke to me about it because I was brown and Muslim and she wanted to know if I was offended by it.

You did specify the parent was white like that had something to do with it. The parent actually said brown, she wouldn't have asked if you were black, white, asian?

I can understand a non-Pakistani non-Muslim asking the same question its a reasonable question isn't it? People in Norwich go all Gavin and Stacey accent on me quite a lot, they sometimes ask if I'm offended, their skin colour is irrelevant.

Have to respond to rest when I have more time.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Yes I specified she was white because she was white and my impression was that this was relevant partly because of the conversation and partly because no one else has asked me if I am offended by Citizen Khan, and I specified that I was relating my experiences.

To paraphrase the relevant part of the conversation:

ME: My daughter is doing pretty good Citizen Khan impressions and impressions of her dad's Sri Lankan accents and phrases to entertain her friends in the playground and now they are all doing accents - I hope the teachers don't tell them off for not being PC - my daughter might get away with the Pakistani or Sri Lankan accents because she is brown but not sure what they will say to the non-Asian kids.

WHITE PARENT: My son loves Citizen Khan - he thinks it's hilarious - but some of our friends have said I shouldn't let him watch it, that it seems a bit racist and offensive about Muslims, but you say you let your daughter watch it?

ME: Yes - my husband showed it to her - they watch episodes together on his iPhone on YouTube. Some white people seem too hung up about political correctness.

WHITE PARENT: Great - I'll let my son watch it and if my friends say anything, I'll say I spoke to you and you're brown and Muslim and you're ok with it.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Why are you surprised about the conversation? Our kids are friends so we know each other and have spent time together on shared school activities or discussing work.

You might have had different experiences, but that's why I am not making generalisations about my experiences here in London.

We seem to have drifted off-topic. Shall we get back to my points about  Brexit?

[jakswan]

Yes I specified she was white because she was white and my impression was that this was relevant partly because of the conversation and partly because no one else has asked me if I am offended by Citizen Khan, and I specified that I was relating my experiences.

If you were relating your experience that you found black people were a little less intelligent, it would still be racist.

Some white people seem too hung up about political correctness.

As are some black, brown, every other ethnic group. Non-Muslim middle class Brts might aspire to be politically correct with regard to Islam and not want to offend, this is to do with their education etc, not because they are a particular race. 

racism
ˈreɪsɪz(ə)m/Submit
noun
the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.

I'm not calling you a racist to offend simply stating a fact.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

If you were relating your experience that you found black people were a little less intelligent, it would still be racist.

False analogy. My experience that some white people seem overly concerned about the way they treat me, a brown person, or other non-white minorities so that they do not come across as displaying feelings of white superiority and privilege that they often get accused of displaying by some non-white people is not the same as your statement about the innate intelligence of black people.

As are some black, brown, every other ethnic group. Non-Muslim middle class Brts might aspire to be politically correct with regard to Islam and not want to offend, this is to do with their education etc, not because they are a particular race.

You can only feel "guilty" about and over-compensate for your so-called white privilege, the British Empire etc if you are white.

racism
ˈreɪsɪz(ə)m/Submit
noun
the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.

I'm not calling you a racist to offend simply stating a fact.

Being called a racist doesn't offend me. I'm ok with being a racist about this opinion, and probably about lots of other opinions.

[jakswan]

You can only feel "guilty" about and over-compensate for your so-called white privilege, the British Empire etc if you are white.

Is that what you think people do? Wow when people ask if I'm offended by taking off my Welsh accent I don't think they are concerned about their "English privilege" but simply being considerate.

 
Being called a racist doesn't offend me. I'm ok with being a racist about this opinion, and probably about lots of other opinions.

Fair enough.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Is that what you think people do? Wow when people ask if I'm offended by taking off my Welsh accent I don't think they are concerned about their "English privilege" but simply being considerate.

Well it might have something to do with my discussions about the concept of "White privilege" with white people - oh no, am I being racist by using the word "white" - oh well.

ETA - do people also ask you if it is ok for their family members to watch a TV programme in their own house that might make fun of Welsh accents?

Thanks for your opinion, but I won't be taking my cue from you as you're not exactly known on here for your complexity of thought or reading the literature on any subject before commenting.

If you want to know about how certain sections of society and the media have pushed the idea of white privilege to shut down discussions, feel free to Google and read the numerous articles on the subject.


Back to Brexit - you were going to get back to me about the efficiency issue in Britain and how Leaving the EU will help?

There was a recent post-referendum Panorama programme about why people voted Leave. Immigration came up a lot - not in terms of racism but just in terms of a hope that a Leave vote would halt immigration because of the lack of investment in infrastructure and jobs paying a living wage to support increased numbers of immigration. There seemed to be a general feeling that neither the Tories or Labour cared enough about the investment in infrastructure issues because it did not affect them in Westminster, and that voting Leave was the only way for ordinary people to have their voices heard.

Some people who voted Leave supported a common market but not increasing political union, which they felt was unworkable.

[jakswan]

Well it might have something to do with my discussions about the concept of "White privilege" with white people - oh no, am I being racist by using the word "white" - oh well.

ETA - do people also ask you if it is ok for their family members to watch a TV programme in their own house that might make fun of Welsh accents?

OIC no being racist is just the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to that race and I suppose prejudging people on that basis. So for example if I said my experience of some Muslims is that they are arrogant know-it-alls based on my experience of you it would Islamophobic, first I tend to not be prejudge people and secondly I know some really nice Muslims.

I know Islamophobia isn't based on race but similar sort of thing. 

They have never asked that specific question but they have asked the same sort of question as I have outlined.

To two examples, people asking me if I'm offended or you are offended, in your example you think they have done it because they are white and in my example I think they did it because they were trying to be nice.

Who knows the true motive...

Thanks for your opinion, but I won't be taking my cue from you as you're not exactly known on here for your complexity of thought or reading the literature on any subject before commenting.

Your opinion, we both have low opinions of each other which happily doesn't bother either of us.

Back to Brexit - you were going to get back to me about the efficiency issue in Britain and how Leaving the EU will help?

Since you don't value my opinion and I don't value yours a discussion isn't going to get anywhere, besides the Bremoaners on here have a demonisation parade with a jakswan effigy leading the line. I've discussed Brexit a lot but we are going over the same ground over and over, time for me to move on.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

OIC no being racist is just the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to that race and I suppose prejudging people on that basis. So for example if I said my experience of some Muslims is that they are arrogant know-it-alls based on my experience of you it would Islamophobic, first I tend to not be prejudge people and secondly I know some really nice Muslims.

Yes it would be pretty dumb to think that a Muslim on a forum that is often frequented by arrogant know-it-alls was representative of 1.6 billion Muslims world-wide. 

To two examples, people asking me if I'm offended or you are offended, in your example you think they have done it because they are white and in my example I think they did it because they were trying to be nice.

Who knows the true motive...

Well I don't know what the true motive is in your case as I wasn't party to the conversation you were having. But in my case I can have an idea of the motive or find out the motive during the course of the conversation by asking the people I am talking to. I can even discuss articles like this with white people and find out what they think and post my understanding or opinions of what they said in threads on this forum.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/thinking-man/the-younger-generations-new-wave-of-political-correctness-is-a-d/

Your opinion, we both have low opinions of each other which happily doesn't bother either of us.

I have no opinion of you - I don't know you - but I do have an opinion of your posts on this forum.

Since you don't value my opinion and I don't value yours a discussion isn't going to get anywhere, besides the Bremoaners on here have a demonisation parade with a jakswan effigy leading the line. I've discussed Brexit a lot but we are going over the same ground over and over, time for me to move on.

Ok but I am not on this forum to value anyone's opinion or cheer anyone on - I just come here to find out what people think and why.