Nice Prayers

[jeremyp]

Hope wrote this on the PT&A board

Looking through the threads, I realised that no-one has started a thread on the events in Nice.  Horrific as they were, we need to pray for the people of both Nice and France as a whole - especially after the previous attacks in Paris.  Recovering from one-such event is difficult, recovering from subsequent events can be even harder.

Wouldn't it be better to pray to God to stop the attacks in the first place?

[Sassy]

Hope wrote this on the PT&A board

Wouldn't it be better to pray to God to stop the attacks in the first place?

Wouldn't that interfere with your freedom of will?

It isn't a case of 'nice prayers' it is more a case of human beings not loving each other.

Would it not be better to send home to their Mecca all the people of that religion to stop this happening... What, people alarmed at removing the element of the cause of such attacks?

In reality Jeremyp, they know the answer but they don't want to stop those 'people'coming into the Countries.

The devastating events which cut deeply hurt others are not really part of the culture of the countries being attacked.

Why ask God to do something that humans are not prepared to do for themselves?

[jeremyp]

Wouldn't that interfere with your freedom of will?

Wouldn't praying for the people of Nice and France after the event be interfering with their freedom of will?

Would it not be better to send home to their Mecca all the people of that religion to stop this happening... What, people alarmed at removing the element of the cause of such attacks?

Wouldn't that be interfering with their freedom of will?

[Sassy]

Wouldn't praying for the people of Nice and France after the event be interfering with their freedom of will?

How? Asking God to comfort them and bring healing isn't interfering with freedom of will.
Surely these things are welcomed by people suffering from the acts of evil man.

Wouldn't that be interfering with their freedom of will?

The consequences of actions are not about freedom of will and choice.
When you make the decision to kill and harm others you then have to face the consequences of your actions. If the people decide in that country that evicting you would prevent such future events then democracy the people can choose to do just that.
No one makes the decision for them and the guilty have no right to choice in such matters.
So you cannot play that card. You brought this subject up, and sorry double standards do not work in this case.

[jeremyp]

How? Asking God to comfort them and bring healing isn't interfering with freedom of will.

You're asking God to change their state of mind. Why didn't he comfort and bring healing to the terrorist so he didn't commit the atrocity in the first place?

Surely these things are welcomed by people suffering from the acts of evil man.

Why was he evil? Wouldn't a bit of TLC by God in the past have stopped him from being evil?

[Hope]

Wouldn't it be better to pray to God to stop the attacks in the first place?

No, because the incidents have already happened.  We can, of course, pray that no more occur - but that wasn't the point of the thread - as well you know, jeremy.

[Gordon]

No, because the incidents have already happened.  We can, of course, pray that no more occur - but that wasn't the point of the thread - as well you know, jeremy.

Go for it then, since you've mentioned it, and let us know when the praying has been done.

If there are no more terror attacks anywhere at all, which would be welcome given the on-going trauma these attacks cause, then you'd have grounds to claim success. However, if there are more such attacks then that would surely demonstrate the failure of prayer.

 

[Hope]

Go for it then, since you've mentioned it, and let us know when the praying has been done.

If there are no more terror attacks anywhere at all, which would be welcome given the on-going trauma these attacks cause, then you'd have grounds to claim success. However, if there are more such attacks then that would surely demonstrate the failure of prayer.

Not necessarily.  As has been pointed out before, God doesn't over-rule freewill.  Rather, he is likely to introduce agents - such as teachers, community elders, parents, friends - who are able to change a person's mind about a given action.  Hopefully, they will change of their own choice.  Sadly, it doesn't always occur.

[Gordon]

Not necessarily.  As has been pointed out before, God doesn't over-rule freewill.  Rather, he is likely to introduce agents - such as teachers, community elders, parents, friends - who are able to change a person's mind about a given action.  Hopefully, they will change of their own choice.  Sadly, it doesn't always occur.

So no prayer test then: I'm not surprised in the least.

How would you know these 'agents' were sent by God though? Could it not be that these are simply humans who have the right mix of altruism, experience, competencies and opportunities to provide advice and support as needed?

Mrs G, who is a Community Nurse, would probably fit your description - so how could you demonstrate that on occasion she might have been used as one of these 'agents', and how would she recognise the difference compared to when she was just doing her job as normal? I'm sure she'd love to know!

[Sebastian Toe]

Rather, he is likely to introduce agents -

How do you think that works then?

[torridon]

Not necessarily.  As has been pointed out before, God doesn't over-rule freewill.  Rather, he is likely to introduce agents - such as teachers, community elders, parents, friends - who are able to change a person's mind about a given action.  Hopefully, they will change of their own choice.  Sadly, it doesn't always occur.

That makes no sense. Why change the mind of a third party as a round about means to influence someone.  That would be a waste of interventionist power, or at least poor targetting.

[jeremyp]

No, because the incidents have already happened.

So you think it is only possible to pray to God to stop specific events, nobody could have prayed "please God stop terrorists from killing people.

We can, of course, pray that no more occur - but that wasn't the point of the thread - as well you know, jeremy.

I started the thread. I have a better grasp of its point than you do.

You're full of excuses but it's about time you admitted that your god is AWOL.

[jeremyp]

Not necessarily.  As has been pointed out before, God doesn't over-rule freewill.  Rather, he is likely to introduce agents - such as teachers, community elders, parents, friends - who are able to change a person's mind about a given action.

Do you not realise the stupidity of that statement?

You claim God doesn't override free will, but then you happily explain how he can override the free will of teachers, community elders, parents and friends.

[floo]

God always seems to be absent when there are atrocities etc, a bit too late to offer up prayers after the event! If god is around somewhere maybe it is getting off on human suffering so doesn't want to prevent it from happening.

Now one awaits the excuses for its actions, or lack of them!

[Sassy]

You're asking God to change their state of mind. Why didn't he comfort and bring healing to the terrorist so he didn't commit the atrocity in the first place?

You call doing evil about not being comforted? Are you sane or just desperate to try and find an argument which doesn't exist?
In this world the terrorist like you had a choice. To harm others or not harm them. The terrorist had no reason for doing what they did in a foreign country. Show what comfort and healing was required. He chose as you did and made the wrong one.

Why was he evil? Wouldn't a bit of TLC by God in the past have stopped him from being evil?

How?  Well you came out with the stupid remark with no basis in reality. Unless you are a terrorist too and believes what he did was right and are sympathising with him then you are called upon to substantiate the claim he did it because he was in need of comfort and healing. So what wrong had those people done him which he needed TLC and healing for?

It is you making up excuses for why the terrorist committed evil. I know of no such event for which the terrorist was wronged by anyone and required comfort or healing, which would excuse what he did.

[floo]

No human terrorist, however bad, is a patch on the Biblical god when it comes to evil deeds.

[Sassy]

No human terrorist, however bad, is a patch on the Biblical god when it comes to evil deeds.

Is there no end to your ignorance or no length you will not go to to make unfounded lies against God?

God only punished evil. Tell me what evil terrorist are punishing?

Now may God  make all who know you come to know the truth  ....that you speak without thinking to the ends of your own heart.
Putting evil for good and good for evil.

King James Bible
Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

You see every true thinking and intelligent mind knows that terrorist do not act against people doing wrong.
The 9/11 show that terrorist hit out at innocent people and cause pain and suffering without just cause or reason.
By your words you have lied about God and worse still have made terrorist out to be not evil.

May Almighty God make it known what you have done.

[floo]

Sass the god of the Bible created evil, if it was responsible for all creation!

[Sassy]

Sass the god of the Bible created evil, if it was responsible for all creation!

He created the man but man chose to do his own evil, just like you.
So whilst responsible for the creation he is not responsible for the choices the creation makes.
Hence you chose evil over good.

[floo]

He created the man but man chose to do his own evil, just like you.
So whilst responsible for the creation he is not responsible for the choices the creation makes.
Hence you chose evil over good.

If god created human nature the buck stops with it. What am I doing that is evil, challenging your unverifiable assertions?

[jeremyp]

You call doing evil about not being comforted? Are you sane or just desperate to try and find an argument which doesn't exist?
In this world the terrorist like you had a choice. To harm others or not harm them. The terrorist had no reason for doing what they did in a foreign country. Show what comfort and healing was required. He chose as you did and made the wrong one.
How?  Well you came out with the stupid remark with no basis in reality. Unless you are a terrorist too and believes what he did was right and are sympathising with him then you are called upon to substantiate the claim he did it because he was in need of comfort and healing. So what wrong had those people done him which he needed TLC and healing for?

You claimed that God sent people to comfort the victims and their families. I am merely point out that a bit of TLC for the perpetrator before he did the deed might have averted it altogether.

It is you making up excuses for why the terrorist committed evil. I know of no such event for which the terrorist was wronged by anyone and required comfort or healing, which would excuse what he did.

This guy was deeply disturbed. A bit of comfort and healing might have stopped dozens of people from dying.

You are the one coming up with bullshit excuses for why your alleged loving god has abdicated all responsibility.

You really are quite pathetic.

[Sassy]

If god created human nature the buck stops with it. What am I doing that is evil, challenging your unverifiable assertions?

Did you really just make that statement?

Explain and show us what human nature was created?

The fact you don't believe is not part of a human nature. It is simply your choice.
God created everything good you choose your bad.

[Sassy]

You claimed that God sent people to comfort the victims and their families. I am merely point out that a bit of TLC for the perpetrator before he did the deed might have averted it altogether.
This guy was deeply disturbed. A bit of comfort and healing might have stopped dozens of people from dying.

You are the one coming up with bullshit excuses for why your alleged loving god has abdicated all responsibility.

You really are quite pathetic.

All that from the person who wrote:-

Quote from: jeremyp on July 17, 2016, 07:34:51 PM
You're asking God to change their state of mind.
Why didn't he comfort and bring healing to the terrorist so he didn't commit the atrocity in the first place?

Why was he evil? Wouldn't a bit of TLC by God in the past have stopped him from being evil?

Truth is your words show you to be the pathetic one and the person who suggested terrorist are terrorist because they lack comfort, and healing. But they were not lacking comfort for NOTHING had happened to then. THEY HAD NO WOUNDS NONE OF THEIR VICTIMS ATTACKED THEM.

The victims in the 9/11 both adult and children did nothing for which the terrorist required comfort or healing. How low can you sink to attack a believer with such evil excuses to try and condone the terrorist and the attacks?

As for the man driving the Lorry in Nice what can stop anyone being evil when they CHOOSE.
Look at the evil you just wrote dismissing the true suffering of those families who lost loved ones in those attacks.

I can  think of nothing worse than being the author of your post which by all accounts tries to excuse evil in a pure form. There is no cause or justification for killing or harming innocent people. No excuse whatsoever.

[floo]

Did you really just make that statement?

Explain and show us what human nature was created?

The fact you don't believe is not part of a human nature. It is simply your choice.
God created everything good you choose your bad.

That statement is GARBAGE, especially as the deeds attributed to god are so evil!

[torridon]

The fact you don't believe is not part of a human nature. It is simply your choice.
God created everything good you choose your bad.

Not really correct.

Everything humans do, everything humans think, all our hopes and fears and tastes are all part of human nature, the good the bad and the ugly are all in there.  To know ourselves, means acknowledging and trying to understand the full range of our capacities, from acts of unthinkable cruelty to the tenderest loving kindnesses.