Breast feeding, an exhibitionists' charter?

[floo]

When feeding a baby a clean, reasonably quiet, stress free environment is best

[Harrowby Hall]

It might but on the other hand a nursing room would be comfortable, completely stress free.  It's not about breasts but about changing nappies and cleaning babies.

I was looking at the programme or whatever you call it for this year's Royal Norfolk show (reason: my old man's firm had a stand there), and noted that there was a place for women to breast feed babies in private and comfort.  Seemed like a good idea.

Changing rooms - or at least facilities - for babies are quite common. But why should a baby be obliged to feed in a place where its urine and faeces are dealt with? Do you eat in your lavatory?

I don't disagree with places where babies can be fed but I do consider that feeding mothers should not be banished to them.

[Brownie]

I agree with you HH and, no, I don't eat in the toilet but I wouldn't be averse to eating in a cloakroom or an area which has a toilet with door on.
Plenty of babies are changed and fed in bedrooms with adjacent bathrooms w toilet.
However in principle I agree with what you say and don't have any objections to breast feeding in public but if a decent place is provided, it would be pleasant and relaxing to do it there.  A veritable haven I would imagine.

[ekim]

From BBC programme 'Dead Ringers':
"MP's are set to be able to breast feed in the House of Commons.  Boris Johnson was said to be furious when told it was just for babies."

[jeremyp]

It might but on the other hand a nursing room would be comfortable, completely stress free.  It's not about breasts but about changing nappies and cleaning babies.

Many public places already have facilities for changing nappies and cleaning babies. I'm not sure that is the correct place to be feeding them too. Upthread somebody made the point "would you want to eat your lunch in the toilet?"

[Brownie]

and I responded:
 "agree with you HH and, no, I don't eat in the toilet but I wouldn't be averse to eating in a cloakroom or an area which has a toilet with door on.
Plenty of babies are changed and fed in bedrooms with adjacent bathrooms w toilet.
However in principle I agree with what you say and don't have any objections to breast feeding in public but if a decent place is provided, it would be pleasant and relaxing to do it there.  A veritable haven I would imagine."

[Harrowby Hall]

Would it not be reasonable to say something like:

Breastfeeding is a normal, natural maternal behaviour and should be accepted as such by everyone.

Breastfeeding in a public place is a normal and natural activity and should be a matter of no consequence to anyone other than the mother and child involved.

Should a safe, clean and comfortable place be available for breastfeeding then a nursing mother should be free to decide whether to use it or not. No other person, unconnected with the mother and child, should have any right to interfere with nursing or be able to make any demand.
 about where breastfeeding should take place.

[Brownie]

Here here!  100%. Spiffing.
WIsh you'd been around when i was attempting to breast feed, I encountered so much opposition even in my own home in front of relatives.  It made me feel so self conscious and my husband was no help at all.  It was OK when I was on my own but I ived in fear of relatives who might want to come round,My mum was, surprisingly, encouraging of me bu the old man thought I should do it upstairs and never in anyone else's house.   I was very stressed and never quie forgiven him, there seemed to be no-one to speak up for me.  I cried and didn't want to leave my house.  Evidentually he went on the bottle and he and I were calmer and he thrived.  It could have been so different,

[Bubbles]

Here here!  100%. Spiffing.
WIsh you'd been around when i was attempting to breast feed, I encountered so much opposition even in my own home in front of relatives.  It made me feel so self conscious and my husband was no help at all.  It was OK when I was on my own but I ived in fear of relatives who might want to come round,My mum was, surprisingly, encouraging of me bu the old man thought I should do it upstairs and never in anyone else's house.   I was very stressed and never quie forgiven him, there seemed to be no-one to speak up for me.  I cried and didn't want to leave my house.  Evidentually he went on the bottle and he and I were calmer and he thrived.  It could have been so different,

It's a pity you didn't get support from those around you, after all babies need to come first even if you are visiting someone else.

I couldn't breastfeed because I didn't have much milk and hated it, so mine went straight onto a bottle after I tried the first hassle of trying.

I think you need people to be understanding or put up with a screaming baby.

I would have been annoyed if I felt I couldn't have even visited someone because it was disapproved of.

It must have been very difficult for you.

A lot of people offer a bedroom to a breast feeding mum if she wants some privacy and although that also could be seen as expecting you to go away to do it, at least it shows some consideration.

 

[Sriram]

Hi everyone,

50 years ago when many Indian women would breast feed their babies anywhere, in buses, trains, theaters etc. it was considered uncivilized and tribal. The West taught us how to be civilized and not to expose the female body in public. Sheesh!! Bottle feeding was the 'civilized' 'modern' way!

Today most Indian women breastfeed only in private, preferring the bottle in public places.....and now we have the West telling us how traumatic it is for the mom and baby to seek out a private spot every time....and so do it in public please!! 

These views are likely to vacillate from generation to generation.

I think a balanced norm of breastfeeding all babies, preferably in a private spot whenever available, should be cultivated by all. 

Cheers.

Sriram

[Harrowby Hall]

Sriram

You say "the West taught us how to be civilized". Is that strictly true?

Might it not have been certain agencies in the west - such as the Nestle company, rather than "the West" generally - which had seen a new source of profitable trading?

I think that people in the West were equally vulnerable to commercial propaganda and were similarly duped. I have no argument with formula milk - but it should be a supplement not a food of first choice. It should be there to support mothers not to supplant them. For mothers for whom breastfeeding is difficult or not possible formula milk is invaluable - but it should not be perceived as the feed of first choice to others who can produce milk.

[floo]

As I have said before, whilst breast might be best, no mother should beat themselves up if they can't breastfeed, as I couldn't with my first two children. Formula did them no harm at all. 

[Sassy]

It is not a bad idea, Sass, an obligation that a comfortable, clean and peaceful room should be an obligation in all public buildings , restaurants, department stores etc. But what this will do is isolate nursing mothers from their friends and families and reinforce the idea that breast feeding is a secretive and solitary practice.

Segregation itself could well be considered to be offensive.

You could say the same thing about a mother nursing her baby at home in the nursery.
Nothing offensive, nothing isolating. Gives new mothers time to chat amongst themselves with other mothers in the same boat.
Collectively it would be good for mothers to chin wag and feel less pressure of feeding in public.

[Brownie]

It's a pity you didn't get support from those around you, after all babies need to come first even if you are visiting someone else.

I couldn't breastfeed because I didn't have much milk and hated it, so mine went straight onto a bottle after I tried the first hassle of trying.

I think you need people to be understanding or put up with a screaming baby.

I would have been annoyed if I felt I couldn't have even visited someone because it was disapproved of.

It must have been very difficult for you.

A lot of people offer a bedroom to a breast feeding mum if she wants some privacy and although that also could be seen as expecting you to go away to do it, at least it shows some consideration.

 

It wasn't just 'going somewhere' Rose, it was in my own home if there was a visitor or visitors.
Still rankles.

[jeremyp]

Hi everyone,

50 years ago when many Indian women would breast feed their babies anywhere, in buses, trains, theaters etc. it was considered uncivilized and tribal. The West taught us how to be civilized and not to expose the female body in public. Sheesh!! Bottle feeding was the 'civilized' 'modern' way!

Today most Indian women breastfeed only in private, preferring the bottle in public places.....and now we have the West telling us how traumatic it is for the mom and baby to seek out a private spot every time....and so do it in public please!! 

Why are you whining about what the West does? Nobody made you follow our example.

[Brownie]

Think of India when it was part of the British Empire, jeremy.   There's no doubt there was great British influence.  I remember many years ago a lady I knew, who had lived in India, speaking disparagingly of a girl she saw breastfeeding.  Her words were:  "I haven't seen anything like it outside the slums of Calcutta".
Indeed it was English women living in India who who had a very snobbish influence on Indians and no doubt the attitudes are ingrained in Indian society and that's probably what Sririam meant.  A great pity.

[jeremyp]

Think of India when it was part of the British Empire, jeremy.   There's no doubt there was great British influence.  I remember many years ago a lady I knew, who had lived in India, speaking disparagingly of a girl she saw breastfeeding.  Her words were:  "I haven't seen anything like it outside the slums of Calcutta".
Indeed it was English women living in India who who had a very snobbish influence on Indians and no doubt the attitudes are ingrained in Indian society and that's probably what Sririam meant.  A great pity.

Sriram put the time scale on it. Fifty years ago, India had been out of the British Empire for almost twenty years.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Why are you whining about what the West does? Nobody made you follow our example.

It's called an observation Jeremy. If you don't like it, take your own advice and don't whine about it  - nobody made you read it.

[Brownie]

Sriram put the time scale on it. Fifty years ago, India had been out of the British Empire for almost twenty years.

That's not very long jeremy!  May seem long to you but it takes more time than that to get rid of ingrained attitudes.  There are still people around who are old enough to remember pre-1948.

In any case, as Gabriella has said, Sririam was merely making an observation.  A not unreasonable one, imo.

[Nearly Sane]

That's not very long jeremy!  May seem long to you but it takes more time than that to get rid of ingrained attitudes.  There are still people around who are old enough to remember pre-1948.

In any case, as Gabriella has said, Sririam was merely making an observation.  A not unreasonable one, imo.

Maybe, but the way Sriram has written it, while India was in the BritishbEmpire, Indian women routinely breast fed in public but at some point after they left the Empire, it and the West somehow told Indian women to stop and they did. That isn't just observation, it's an opinion of cause and effect and one that doesn't easily match with the facts.

Is the 'West' as Sriram portrays it really telling Indian women that they have to breast feed in public?

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

I don't disagree with places where babies can be fed but I do consider that feeding mothers should not be banished to them.

I don't agree with banishing people either. But I am glad that most mothers still feel less stressed by the idea of breastfeeding in private than in public, and therefore either choose to banish themselves or breastfeed discreetly when in public. Probably for the same reason that I find it strange that people post every detail of their life on social media - I just went on holiday and had a great time without feeling the need to share the details or pictures with all my friends.

I think breastfeeding is a more intimate act than feeding your child with a bottle or a spoon so find it strange that women want to do it openly in front of the general public rather than discreetly or privately. Obviously other people may feel that breastfeeding is no different to bottle-feeding and find it strange that some people think both can't be done openly. I can understand breastfeeding in front close friends or family.  No doubt the culture may change at some point in the future to a more open one, but until that time, personally I am more comfortable with the breast-feeding restrictions mothers currently put on themselves.

Looking after a baby is stressful for a whole host of reasons - sleepless nights, extra laundry, increased costs, juggling demands of other children, housework, hormones, job etc - so regardless of whether you add planning feeds and missing out on activities and chatting with friends because of baby-feeding responsibilities to that list, a mother can expect to be stressed. When my children were babies they seemed perfectly happy to feed in private and it seemed easier for them to feed comfortably. I just managed my expectations that my life was going to be a bit different for a while and I would have to make certain adjustments for a short time.     

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Maybe, but the way Sriram has written it, while India was in the BritishbEmpire, Indian women routinely breast fed in public but at some point after they left the Empire, it and the West somehow told Indian women to stop and they did. That isn't just observation, it's an opinion of cause and effect and one that doesn't easily match with the facts.

Is the 'West' as Sriram portrays it really telling Indian women that they have to breast feed in public?

Anecdotal evidence is that breastfeeding in public - though usually covered by a shawl - is more common in rural areas than urban areas, probably due to differences in cultures that develop in cities compared to rural areas.

Whether it is observation or opinion, it still doesn't appear to be whining. Sriram seems to be suggesting that as many British people in India did express opinions about "civilising" the natives by introducing / teaching/ trying to "indoctrinate" them with foreign values, this foreign influence whether directly through the Empire or indirectly through foreign investment and international policies must be the reason why there was a decline in public breast feeding in urban areas, but he has presented no evidence to support his opinion.   

[Brownie]

Maybe, but the way Sriram has written it, while India was in the BritishbEmpire, Indian women routinely breast fed in public but at some point after they left the Empire, it and the West somehow told Indian women to stop and they did. That isn't just observation, it's an opinion of cause and effect and one that doesn't easily match with the facts.

Is the 'West' as Sriram portrays it really telling Indian women that they have to breast feed in public?

No, I think he is saying that the 'West' tut tutted about public breast feeding.
Maybe we all have it wrong, hey ho.  Perhaps Sririam will return and explain it.

[jeremyp]

That's not very long jeremy! 

It's a generation. It's long enough for many women having babies not to have been able to remember British rule.

In any case, as Gabriella has said, Sririam was merely making an observation.  A not unreasonable one, imo.

No. He was complaining about Indian fads with respect to breast feeding and he was putting the blame squarely on Western fashions.

[Brownie]

Alright Jeremy.
Tomorrow is another day, let's hope we all get out of bed on the right (correct) side.