Author Topic: Romans 16  (Read 32555 times)

Ricky Spanish

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3016
Re: Romans 16
« Reply #150 on: August 29, 2016, 01:18:27 PM »
The thing that seems to escape you is the church Saul created is as far away from the church "Jesus" followed as you are from me..

The Torah observant "Jesus" was, from the scant evidence we have before us, preaching about returning to the Laws/Commandments of his God/Abba/Father for the kingdom of his god was already there on the earth and if you continue to sin against his God/Abba/Father you will be excluded...[this is where it all gets a bit complicated, paschal sacrifice and all that], but history is still related to his story about following his God/Abba/Father, you know the one goid and all that. The Goid of the Jews... exclusively the Jews.

There was a "Noahide law" cobbled together hundreds of years after Sauls death to give heathens, sorry "Gentiles" a shoe in to support the Jewish God, but that discussion is for later..

Now that greasy little Turk was the shoe-in.. well at least he created the shoe-in. It would take a couple of more centuries of refinement to create the religion we have today, he was canny about it though. Don't you agree?



**[ETA]**

I've come to the conclusion that the Torah created sin and the NT tries to absolve it..  whatcha think?
« Last Edit: August 29, 2016, 01:23:14 PM by Ricky Spanish »
UNDERSTAND - I MAKE OPINIONS. IF YOUR ARGUMENTS MAKE ME QUESTION MY OPINION THEN I WILL CONSIDER THEM.

Hope

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 25569
    • Tools With A Mission
Re: Romans 16
« Reply #151 on: August 29, 2016, 01:57:41 PM »
The thing that seems to escape you is the church Saul created is as far away from the church "Jesus" followed as you are from me..
Ricky, can you provide us with any idea of what the 'church "Jesus" followed' existed of, taking into account that it certainly wouldn't have been the Jewish faith.  Furthermore, can you give us any idea what the 'church Saul created' looked like - and perhaps even where it existed.

Quote
The Torah observant "Jesus" was, from the scant evidence we have before us, preaching about returning to the Laws/Commandments of his God/Abba/Father for the kingdom of his god was already there on the earth and if you continue to sin against his God/Abba/Father you will be excluded...[this is where it all gets a bit complicated, paschal sacrifice and all that], but history is still related to his story about following his God/Abba/Father, you know the one goid and all that. The Goid of the Jews... exclusively the Jews.
Except that he WASN'T preaching about "returning to the Laws/Commandments" since he preached that he had come to fulfill the law, and that therefore the law was now effectively obsolete.

Quote
There was a "Noahide law" cobbled together hundreds of years after Sauls death to give heathens, sorry "Gentiles" a shoe in to support the Jewish God, but that discussion is for later..
So how do you explain the growth of Christianity amongst the Gentiles and the Jews in the first 3 or 400 years AD that history tells us occurred, long before your 'Noahide law' came into existence.

Quote
Now that greasy little Turk was the shoe-in.. well at least he created the shoe-in. It would take a couple of more centuries of refinement to create the religion we have today, he was canny about it though. Don't you agree?
For one thing, Saul/Paul wasn't a 'greasy little Turk', but a highly religious Jew who experienced something that changed his aim from destroying the fledgling Chritian church to building it up and extending its influenece around the Mediterranean.

Quote
I've come to the conclusion that the Torah created sin and the NT tries to absolve it..  whatcha think?
Not quite sure that the Torah invented anything.  I accept that without 'Law' there can't be the concept of wrongdoing, but that doesn't mean that the Torah created anything; instead, it organised existing means of punishment.  It also spends a lot of time/space dealing with the means of absolution.  As such, the New Testament simply extends the latter.
Are your, or your friends'/relatives', garages, lofts or sheds full of unused DIY gear, sewing/knitting machines or fabric and haberdashery stuff?

Lists of what is needed and a search engine to find your nearest collector (scroll to bottom for latter) are here:  http://www.twam.uk/donate-tools

Ricky Spanish

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3016
Re: Romans 16
« Reply #152 on: August 29, 2016, 02:26:54 PM »
You've answered your own questions there hopeless... read it again:
UNDERSTAND - I MAKE OPINIONS. IF YOUR ARGUMENTS MAKE ME QUESTION MY OPINION THEN I WILL CONSIDER THEM.

ippy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12679
Re: Romans 16
« Reply #153 on: August 29, 2016, 02:57:25 PM »
Yes, ippy.  I was wondering what church Thrud believes that Saul created.  Is he talking about the various congregations that Saul (aka Paul) was involved in establishing around the Mediterranean, or is he talking about a church that Saul (aka Paul) created - a theory that has been doing the rounds for a century or two, but for which there is limited evidence.

You know for certain this Saul bloke existed?

ippy

Hope

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 25569
    • Tools With A Mission
Re: Romans 16
« Reply #154 on: August 29, 2016, 03:30:41 PM »
You know for certain this Saul bloke existed?

ippy
According to historians, yes.
Are your, or your friends'/relatives', garages, lofts or sheds full of unused DIY gear, sewing/knitting machines or fabric and haberdashery stuff?

Lists of what is needed and a search engine to find your nearest collector (scroll to bottom for latter) are here:  http://www.twam.uk/donate-tools

Hope

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 25569
    • Tools With A Mission
Re: Romans 16
« Reply #155 on: August 29, 2016, 03:32:15 PM »
You've answered your own questions there hopeless... read it again:
to be honest, the answers were given as early as the OP, but then Thrud (and sometimes ippy) likes to question them in order to sound clever.
Are your, or your friends'/relatives', garages, lofts or sheds full of unused DIY gear, sewing/knitting machines or fabric and haberdashery stuff?

Lists of what is needed and a search engine to find your nearest collector (scroll to bottom for latter) are here:  http://www.twam.uk/donate-tools

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 63460
Re: Romans 16
« Reply #156 on: August 29, 2016, 06:43:20 PM »
 Moderator A number of posts have been removed from the thread as they were personal insults.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2016, 07:07:49 PM by Nearly Sane »

ippy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12679
Re: Romans 16
« Reply #157 on: August 29, 2016, 06:52:46 PM »
According to historians, yes.

How accurately have they presented Saul's words and if you say they have how would you know? I suggest you nor anyone else can know for certain.

ippy
 

floo

  • Guest
Re: Romans 16
« Reply #158 on: August 30, 2016, 09:14:06 AM »
How accurately have they presented Saul's words and if you say they have how would you know? I suggest you nor anyone else can know for certain.

ippy

A good question.

Hope

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 25569
    • Tools With A Mission
Re: Romans 16
« Reply #159 on: August 30, 2016, 09:06:29 PM »
How accurately have they presented Saul's words and if you say they have how would you know? I suggest you nor anyone else can know for certain.

ippy
Who would your 'they' (italicised) be, ippy?  Regarding how one knows the accuracy, I'm quite happy to accept scholars' views on this issue, even when they aren't Christians or even religious.
Are your, or your friends'/relatives', garages, lofts or sheds full of unused DIY gear, sewing/knitting machines or fabric and haberdashery stuff?

Lists of what is needed and a search engine to find your nearest collector (scroll to bottom for latter) are here:  http://www.twam.uk/donate-tools

Khatru

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 807
Re: Romans 16
« Reply #160 on: August 30, 2016, 09:45:12 PM »
According to historians, yes.

They do indeed.

Of course any historian worth their salt wouldn't get get their history of Israel from the Bible.  After all, that would be like getting ancient Greek history from Homer.

"I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy"

Dorothy Parker

Brownie

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3858
  • Faith evolves
Re: Romans 16
« Reply #161 on: August 30, 2016, 09:57:04 PM »
Let us profit by what every day and hour teaches us

ippy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12679
Re: Romans 16
« Reply #162 on: August 31, 2016, 09:47:02 AM »
Who would your 'they' (italicised) be, ippy?  Regarding how one knows the accuracy, I'm quite happy to accept scholars' views on this issue, even when they aren't Christians or even religious.

Because there's no element of certainty about your historical documents as to whether, they actually convey accurate facts or not, I assume your reference to 'they', couldn't possibly be construed as a wriggle of discomfort?

ippy

Dicky Underpants

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4340
Re: Romans 16
« Reply #163 on: August 31, 2016, 04:16:28 PM »
You know for certain this Saul bloke existed?

and

Quote
How accurately have they presented Saul's words and if you say they have how would you know? I suggest you nor anyone else can know for certain.

ippy

This applies to a very great deal of historical material. We can't be certain that Boudicca existed, even though Tacitus wrote of her as if she did. We can't be certain that any of Julius Caesar's memoirs are accurate reportage - or even if they proceeded directly from the hand of the emperor in question (the only manuscripts we have date from years after his death). We do possess quite a few early documents which purport to be accurate transcriptions of what St Paul actually wrote. It is true that many scholars, Christian and non-Christian(indeed downright atheist) dispute that a number of these are authentic. But most of these scholars accept that quite a number of the original letters were indeed written by a very real Saul/Paul of Tarsus.

All this is quite different from the argument as to whether there was an actual historical Jesus, since there are no accounts written by Jesus himself, only very contradictory accounts written about him and what he is supposed to have done and said.

However, given that we have a number of documents purportedly written by one historical individual (St Paul), and that these refer to his own doings and experiences, I'm wondering just what your criteria are for doubting his existence - indeed, I'm wondering just how much you doubt about history in general, or reality in general. Do you adopt - in your general approach to life - a completely Cartesian standpoint? "We must begin by doubting everything" (and this would include your own existence - or certainly that of other people). Or do you just like to doubt the existence of people who make religious claims? If so, this would certainly apply to Julius Caesar, who, I'm sure, believed in the gods Jupiter and Mercury.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2016, 04:44:40 PM by Dicky Underpants »
"Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous.”

Le Bon David

Hope

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 25569
    • Tools With A Mission
Re: Romans 16
« Reply #164 on: August 31, 2016, 06:04:53 PM »
Because there's no element of certainty about your historical documents as to whether, they actually convey accurate facts or not, I assume your reference to 'they', couldn't possibly be construed as a wriggle of discomfort?

ippy
ippy, all I asked was who the 'they', that you referred to in the post that started this particular mini-thread, are.  Or do I espy a certain amount of 'wriggle' on your behalf?
Are your, or your friends'/relatives', garages, lofts or sheds full of unused DIY gear, sewing/knitting machines or fabric and haberdashery stuff?

Lists of what is needed and a search engine to find your nearest collector (scroll to bottom for latter) are here:  http://www.twam.uk/donate-tools

ippy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12679
Re: Romans 16
« Reply #165 on: August 31, 2016, 06:06:52 PM »
and

This applies to a very great deal of historical material. We can't be certain that Boudicca existed, even though Tacitus wrote of her as if she did. We can't be certain that any of Julius Caesar's memoirs are accurate reportage - or even if they proceeded directly from the hand of the emperor in question (the only manuscripts we have date from years after his death). We do possess quite a few early documents which purport to be accurate transcriptions of what St Paul actually wrote. It is true that many scholars, Christian and non-Christian(indeed downright atheist) dispute that a number of these are authentic. But most of these scholars accept that quite a number of the original letters were indeed written by a very real Saul/Paul of Tarsus.

All this is quite different from the argument as to whether there was an actual historical Jesus, since there are no accounts written by Jesus himself, only very contradictory accounts written about him and what he is supposed to have done and said.

However, given that we have a number of documents purportedly written by one historical individual (St Paul), and that these refer to his own doings and experiences, I'm wondering just what your criteria are for doubting his existence - indeed, I'm wondering just how much you doubt about history in general, or reality in general. Do you adopt - in your general approach to life - a completely Cartesian standpoint? "We must begin by doubting everything" (and this would include your own existence - or certainly that of other people). Or do you just like to doubt the existence of people who
make religious claims? If so, this would certainly apply to Julius Caesar, who, I'm sure, believed in the gods Jupiter and Mercury.

We know even less about how accurately the words they are supposed to have conveyed have been represented in the various writings available, so until they can be verified what's the point it's hardly a labour of love.

ippy

 

Hope

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 25569
    • Tools With A Mission
Re: Romans 16
« Reply #166 on: August 31, 2016, 06:09:22 PM »
They do indeed.

Of course any historian worth their salt wouldn't get get their history of Israel from the Bible.  After all, that would be like getting ancient Greek history from Homer.
And that is where you would be wrong, Khatru.  There are a number of things recorded in the Hebrew Scriptures that are distinctly history; then, as is the case with a lot of comparable sources, there is theological, poetical and revelationary material.  If you ask me how we know which is which, it is usually down to the style and form of language used, which is where we need literary critics to guide us.
Are your, or your friends'/relatives', garages, lofts or sheds full of unused DIY gear, sewing/knitting machines or fabric and haberdashery stuff?

Lists of what is needed and a search engine to find your nearest collector (scroll to bottom for latter) are here:  http://www.twam.uk/donate-tools

Hope

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 25569
    • Tools With A Mission
Re: Romans 16
« Reply #167 on: August 31, 2016, 06:11:07 PM »
We know even less about how accurately the words they are supposed to have conveyed have been represented in the various writings available, so until they can be verified what's the point it's hardly a labour of love.

ippy
Its rather important for a whole raft of reasons, often having no religious connotations at all.
Are your, or your friends'/relatives', garages, lofts or sheds full of unused DIY gear, sewing/knitting machines or fabric and haberdashery stuff?

Lists of what is needed and a search engine to find your nearest collector (scroll to bottom for latter) are here:  http://www.twam.uk/donate-tools

ippy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12679
Re: Romans 16
« Reply #168 on: August 31, 2016, 07:16:33 PM »
Its rather important for a whole raft of reasons, often having no religious connotations at all.

I accept there must be some philosophical elements probably worth a read, like like some of Hemingway's, or other novelists of merit would be, but no more than that.

ippy     

ippy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12679
Re: Romans 16
« Reply #169 on: August 31, 2016, 07:34:40 PM »
ippy, all I asked was who the 'they', that you referred to in the post that started this particular mini-thread, are.  Or do I espy a certain amount of 'wriggle' on your behalf?

Not really I thought that was more in your domain, you know your regular use of N P F and all of that, most people understand rather innocuous colloquialisms such as 'they', you're supposed to be the English language expert, why not enjoy your moment and explain to me why you have chosen to not understand my use of 'they' in this particular instance; I can hardly wait. 

ippy

jeremyp

  • Admin Support
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 32121
  • Blurb
    • Sincere Flattery: A blog about computing
Re: Romans 16
« Reply #170 on: August 31, 2016, 07:46:35 PM »
You know for certain this Saul bloke existed?

ippy

Nothing is certain in historical research but it is fair to say that Paul very probably existed.
This post and all of JeremyP's posts words certified 100% divinely inspired* -- signed God.
*Platinum infallibility package, terms and conditions may apply

ippy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12679
Re: Romans 16
« Reply #171 on: August 31, 2016, 08:03:06 PM »
Nothing is certain in historical research but it is fair to say that Paul very probably existed.

I'll go with this but even so, I would think the accuracy of the recording of the things he is supposed to have conveyed is more than a little questionable.

ippy 

Hope

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 25569
    • Tools With A Mission
Re: Romans 16
« Reply #172 on: August 31, 2016, 09:00:52 PM »
I'll go with this but even so, I would think the accuracy of the recording of the things he is supposed to have conveyed is more than a little questionable.

ippy
And why do you say that, ippy?  After all, the legit. documents date from the correct period, and are signed off by himself, suggesting that he agreed with what was written, even if he used a scribe for much of it (Luke, by most accounts, who was also a doctor - so well educated).  Do you have access to alternative versions?
Are your, or your friends'/relatives', garages, lofts or sheds full of unused DIY gear, sewing/knitting machines or fabric and haberdashery stuff?

Lists of what is needed and a search engine to find your nearest collector (scroll to bottom for latter) are here:  http://www.twam.uk/donate-tools

ippy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12679
Re: Romans 16
« Reply #173 on: September 01, 2016, 10:54:04 AM »
And why do you say that, ippy?  After all, the legit. documents date from the correct period, and are signed off by himself, suggesting that he agreed with what was written, even if he used a scribe for much of it (Luke, by most accounts, who was also a doctor - so well educated).  Do you have access to alternative versions?

Lot of stuff needs to authentication, there like who might have done any of the signing things off etc, even those like yourself that like to think superstitions can be verified can only make conjecture about these things such as who wrote these things and who signed them off.

No matter how much you want to believe in the myth, magic and superstitions built around and by these ancient people, good old Tommy Paine still sums it up in a far better term of phrase than I can as below:

"If we are to suppose a miracle to be something so entirely out of the course of what is called nature, that she must go out of that course to accomplish it; and we see an account given of such a miracle by a person who said he saw it, it raises a question in the mind very easily decided, which is: Is it more probable that nature should go out of her course, or that man should tell a lie?"

It's obviously very important to you to find anything you can that might support these beliefs of yours it doesn't surprise me how desperate you must be to believe every written word about these ancient figures is 100% kosher, even when you must know it isn't and can't be.

ippy

floo

  • Guest
Re: Romans 16
« Reply #174 on: September 01, 2016, 11:23:24 AM »
Basically if something isn't credible, it didn't happen as reported, or there is an explanation, which has nothing to do with a god or the supernatural..