Author Topic: Romans 16  (Read 33422 times)

Hope

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Romans 16
« on: July 24, 2016, 04:13:59 PM »
For many, this is a pretty boring chapter at the end of a highly contentious and therefore interesting epistle.  It is argubly the most important epistle of the whole of the New Testament as it includes both doctrine and advice.

Many, Christians and others, probably treat it like one of the genealogies and lists of tribal histories - perhaps even skipping over it in their efforts to get to the exciting stuff.

However, if one looks at it carefully, it is full of a lot of exciting things.

Of the 27 people Paul mentions, at least 9 of them are women.  What is more, the first two to be mentioned are women.  Phoebe is described as a 'servant (deacon - NIV) of the church at Cenchrea' - where the word 'servant' is used to translate the Greek word "διάκονον" (diakonon).  This word is the same root word used twice in Acts 6: 1-7, when the apostles chose the 7 to serve - thus instituting the office of practical leadrship that was the diaconate in the early church:  "προσκαλεσάμενοι δὲ οἱ δώδεκα τὸ πλῆθος τῶν μαθητῶν εἶπαν· Οὐκ ἀρεστόν ἐστιν ἡμᾶς καταλείψαντας τὸν λόγον τοῦ θεοῦ διακονεῖν τραπέζαις·" (v.2) and "ἡμεῖς δὲ τῇ προσευχῇ καὶ τῇ διακονίᾳ τοῦ λόγου προσκαρτερήσομεν."  Clearly, she plays an important role in the church that is mentioned; she's not just a member of the congregation.

Interestingly, the next person mentioned is "Πρίσκαν" - Priscilla (along with her husband Aquila), v.3ff - and their role as leaders of the church that met in their home.  Again, someone in a not-insignificant role.

The third woman to be mentioned is "Μαριάμ" - Mary - v6.  Apart from her name and the fact that she had worked hard for the church (and was now in some form of 'retirement' from this role), we don't know anything about her. 

Verse 7 includes the name "Ἰουνίαν" Junias/Junia.  In view of the fact that all the women whose Greek names end in 'a' (a common ending to feminine nouns) end in ' ...-αν' in this passage ( because they are always the objects of the sentence, not the subject) it would make sense to understand this to be a female name associated with a husband - Andronicus.  They had both been in prison with Paul, suggesting that they both held leadership roles of some kind - perhaps, like Paul, in a missionary capacity.

In v.12, Paul mentions three women - Tryphaena, Tryphosa and Persis; and then Julia and the sister of Nereus in verse 15.  Of the nine, six are described as fellow-workers or as those who have worked very hard in the Lord (v12)

Clearly, the early church was not an organisation which ignored women in its leadership.

I accept that since the middle of the 1st millennium - especially following the Synod of Whitby (664) - the church has been predominantly male-run, but tht isn't a Biblical position.

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jeremyp

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Re: Romans 16
« Reply #1 on: July 24, 2016, 04:26:17 PM »

I accept that since the middle of the 1st millennium - especially following the Synod of Whitby (664) - the church has been predominantly male-run, but tht isn't a Biblical position.

I would argue that even some of the later epistles attributed to Paul (but not actually written by him) show evidence that the church had become more patriarchal.
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Hope

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Re: Romans 16
« Reply #2 on: July 24, 2016, 04:27:56 PM »
I would argue that even some of the later epistles attributed to Paul (but not actually written by him) show evidence that the church had become more patriarchal.
Such as?  Remember also that the British church, which effectively kowtowed to the Roman Church in 644, had women in leadership prior to that date. 
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Re: Romans 16
« Reply #3 on: July 24, 2016, 04:53:17 PM »
I thought Paul told women to be silent in church?

jeremyp

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Re: Romans 16
« Reply #4 on: July 24, 2016, 05:07:09 PM »
Such as?
Seriously?

Quote from: NRSV, 1 Timothy 2
Let a woman learn in silence with full submission. I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she is to keep silent.

Quote
Remember also that the British church, which effectively kowtowed to the Roman Church in 644, had women in leadership prior to that date.
Right, so some women being in leadership positions (who were they btw?) in an outpost of Europe tells us what the whole Christian Church was like. Doesn't sound likely to me.
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Brownie

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Re: Romans 16
« Reply #5 on: July 24, 2016, 05:31:54 PM »
I thought Paul told women to be silent in church?

That was in 1 Corinthians 14 I think.

I wonder what had been going on in church that prompted him to say that, it was quite vehement.  Who knows, maybe there had been complaints about women's behaviour, we mustn't forget that the early Christians were nearly all from a Jewish background and, whilst women are and have always been very strong people, there were and are strict differences between how men and women worship.  Paul was very careful that his church not cause scandal.

Different times, more relaxation.

Paul had great respect for many women and names Phoebe, Priscilla, Junia and others.  Romans 16 is extremely interesting for that alone which is why Hope has posted about it.
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Ricky Spanish

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Re: Romans 16
« Reply #6 on: July 24, 2016, 08:39:55 PM »
Yeah, it is kinda interesting that the one who has carried this letter, to a congregation he didn't establish himself, in a place he had never visited at the time was a woman, oor Phoebe, the deacon of the church in Cenchreae, Corinth’s nearby port.

Why did Tertius send a woman to deliver this introduction of Pauls Theology to a Church in Rome?

Did Paul commission this mission in the hope of establishing a base for his foray into the Western World? In particular Spain:

"Paul’s Plan to Visit Rome.

15:23 But now that there is no more place for me to work in these regions, and since I have been longing for many years to visit you, 15:24 I plan to do so when I go to Spain. I hope to see you while passing through and to have you assist me on my journey there after I have enjoyed your company for a while."

Also to be fair you can't really cite 1 Timothy as evidence that Paul was misogynistic seeing as Paul had nothing to do with 1 Timothy.  It is a later book written by someone else pretending to be Paul. 
« Last Edit: July 24, 2016, 08:45:10 PM by Thrud the Barbarian »
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Brownie

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Re: Romans 16
« Reply #7 on: July 24, 2016, 08:43:47 PM »
Thrud:
Why did Tertius send a woman to deliver this introduction of Pauls Theology to a Church in Rome?

Because woman generally have better inter-personal skills?  Just a thought.
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Ricky Spanish

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Re: Romans 16
« Reply #8 on: July 24, 2016, 08:46:37 PM »
LOL.. snap!

Could it have something to do with Roman Society??
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Brownie

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Re: Romans 16
« Reply #9 on: July 24, 2016, 08:50:32 PM »
Almost certainly Thrud.  They were highly civilised after all.
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Ricky Spanish

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Re: Romans 16
« Reply #10 on: July 24, 2016, 08:51:09 PM »
Does Tertius imply that Junia was an Apostle: "7 Greet Andronicus and Junia, my fellow Jews who have been in prison with me. They are outstanding among [are esteemed by] the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was."?
UNDERSTAND - I MAKE OPINIONS. IF YOUR ARGUMENTS MAKE ME QUESTION MY OPINION THEN I WILL CONSIDER THEM.

Ricky Spanish

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Re: Romans 16
« Reply #11 on: July 24, 2016, 08:52:16 PM »
More civilised than the Greeks Brownie?


UNDERSTAND - I MAKE OPINIONS. IF YOUR ARGUMENTS MAKE ME QUESTION MY OPINION THEN I WILL CONSIDER THEM.

Sassy

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Re: Romans 16
« Reply #12 on: July 24, 2016, 08:53:41 PM »
Just a thought... isn't the Spirit able to do in both Christian Men and Women the same work?


Clearly the teaching there is no difference in Christ male or female.

I think that Paul sent letters to milk drinkers and that meat eaters were both men and women and they already in Spirit did not require a teacher.

Hence the difference in the teachings for milk drinkers as opposed to meat eaters sharing what God gave them through the Spirit being equal.
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Ricky Spanish

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Re: Romans 16
« Reply #13 on: July 24, 2016, 09:01:23 PM »
Yeah, but why did Tertius send a woman to Rome to visit a church Paul didn't establish Sass.. and wtf has milk and meat got to do with the discussion??

I'm guessing illusions to Tits and Dick... seems to be your level!!
« Last Edit: July 24, 2016, 09:04:25 PM by Thrud the Barbarian »
UNDERSTAND - I MAKE OPINIONS. IF YOUR ARGUMENTS MAKE ME QUESTION MY OPINION THEN I WILL CONSIDER THEM.

Ricky Spanish

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Re: Romans 16
« Reply #14 on: July 24, 2016, 09:19:38 PM »
Anywho - Thread-killer is back on-line.

See y'all next week/month!!
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Hope

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Re: Romans 16
« Reply #15 on: July 24, 2016, 09:24:24 PM »
I thought Paul told women to be silent in church?
Look at 1 Corinthians 11:5, Floo; or Titus 2:4.  Note also the number of women in church leadership as noted in Romans 16.

I remember taking a group of Year 9 pupils to a Jewish synagogue in Newport some years ago.  One of the pupils asked whether women were allowed to speak during services (she was the daughter of a local clergyman) and the rabbi who was conducting the tour pointed out that only men count in the tally of a Jewish synagogue's attendance.  This differentiation is excerbated by the fact that women are either not allowed to attend or, if they are, they will be required to sit upstairs in the balcony with the children.  It is very common for them to chatter to each other during the service and so Paul's reference to women keeping quiet, in 1 Corinthians 14: 33-35, is within that context.  After all, Paul doesn't say that women shouldn't pray or prophesy.

In other words, 1 Corinthians 14:33-35 isn't a blanket ban; rather it relates to a specific context.
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Hope

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Re: Romans 16
« Reply #16 on: July 24, 2016, 09:25:35 PM »
Anywho - Thread-killer is back on-line.
This is an open discussion thread, Thrud; any 1-1 debate thread will be marked as such.
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Sassy

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Re: Romans 16
« Reply #17 on: July 24, 2016, 09:41:36 PM »
Yeah, but why did Tertius send a woman to Rome to visit a church Paul didn't establish Sass.. and wtf has milk and meat got to do with the discussion??

I'm guessing illusions to Tits and Dick... seems to be your level!!
I thought you knew the writings of the NT....

As for the last remark... seems you need your mind hiring to brain level.
We are not all like you. Seems your stuck between the two.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2016, 09:51:29 PM by Sassy »
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Hope

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Re: Romans 16
« Reply #18 on: July 24, 2016, 09:52:34 PM »
Seriously?
So, you're unable to point out the references you alluded to?  The rules of evidence apply to all, here.

Quote
Right, so some women being in leadership positions (who were they btw?) in an outpost of Europe tells us what the whole Christian Church was like. Doesn't sound likely to me.
OK, starting somewhat before the mid 1st millennium, this wikipedia article highlights the important roles women took in the early church as a whole - note especially the work that Geoffrey Blainey has brought to the debate (his biographical article on wikipedia makes no mention of his being a believer, though he may be).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_Church_history#Apostolic_age

Note that it does also point out that the church did become a largely patriarchal body relatively early in its life.

Regarding the 'British Church', this article from the Holy Celtic Church makes an interesting comment:

Quote
The modern Holy Celtic Church is a totally independent jurisdiction and a member of the Celtic Synod.  It is Apostolic, possessing valid lines of apostolic succession through the Order of Corporate Reunion and other valid eastern and western apostolic lines. The Church has a limited hierarchy and is served by a non-stipend clergy who are not bound by vows of celibacy. They endeavor to restore the simplicity, purity, and the original intent of Christian worship, free of the religious doctrines, dogmas and traditions that have accumulated over the centuries. The Church adopted the Celtic Liturgy, which reminds worshipers of the major points of the Christian faith God wants all followers to remember and practice daily. The Church operates in accordance with ancient Celtic, not Mediterranean, traditions that place women in responsible roles in the church.
http://www.celticsynod.org/celtic.htm

Remember that, until the English 'conquered' what is now Wales (in the time of Edward I), 'Welsh' women had the same rights as men in a large number of social contexts. 
« Last Edit: July 24, 2016, 09:57:37 PM by Hope »
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Hope

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Re: Romans 16
« Reply #19 on: July 24, 2016, 09:55:41 PM »
Yeah, but why did Tertius send a woman to Rome to visit a church Paul didn't establish Sass.. and wtf has milk and meat got to do with the discussion??

I'm guessing illusions to Tits and Dick... seems to be your level!!
Good on ya, Thrud?  For someone who claims a knowledge of the Bible, one would expect them to understand the reference to milk and meat.  The first refers to what young children are given as food; the latter refers to what more mature people are given as food.
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Brownie

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Re: Romans 16
« Reply #20 on: July 24, 2016, 10:31:41 PM »
Thrud: More civilised than the Greeks Brownie?


No.  Both highly civilised in different ways.

Sass:  Just a thought... isn't the Spirit able to do in both Christian Men and Women the same work?


Yes.
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Sassy

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Re: Romans 16
« Reply #21 on: July 25, 2016, 12:01:32 AM »
Good on ya, Thrud?  For someone who claims a knowledge of the Bible, one would expect them to understand the reference to milk and meat.  The first refers to what young children are given as food; the latter refers to what more mature people are given as food.

If you read the replies you would know I made the reference to milk and meat, it was Thrud who did not understand it...

It appears you can make yourself look ridiculous at times without help from the atheists. ::)
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jeremyp

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Re: Romans 16
« Reply #22 on: July 25, 2016, 02:19:29 AM »
So, you're unable to point out the references you alluded to?  The rules of evidence apply to all, here.
I quoted one directly.

Quote
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_Church_history#Apostolic_age

I don't dispute that women had an important role in the church in Paul' time. It's soon afterwards that things started to become more patriarchal.

Quote
Regarding the 'British Church', this article from the Holy Celtic Church makes an interesting comment:
http://www.celticsynod.org/celtic.htm

Quote
Historical evidence indicates the Church founders were followers of our Lord Jesus Christ, led by Joseph of Arimathea, dating from before the crucifixion and the dispersion of Jesus’ followers after Pentecost. These founders traveled from the Holy Land and ultimately settled in the British Isles by way of Gaul.

You're offering a rehash of the Arthurian legend as a serious historical document? Also, where are the women in it?
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floo

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Re: Romans 16
« Reply #23 on: July 25, 2016, 11:02:28 AM »
Just a thought... isn't the Spirit able to do in both Christian Men and Women the same work?


Clearly the teaching there is no difference in Christ male or female.

I think that Paul sent letters to milk drinkers and that meat eaters were both men and women and they already in Spirit did not require a teacher.

Hence the difference in the teachings for milk drinkers as opposed to meat eaters sharing what God gave them through the Spirit being equal.

Which spirit did you have in mind, whisky, gin, vodka,  brandy? :D

Brownie

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Re: Romans 16
« Reply #24 on: July 25, 2016, 01:29:03 PM »
Cor blimey Mrs Floo, you ain't harf original with that question!   ;D 
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