Author Topic: The Core of What Bothers Me About Donald Trump  (Read 20402 times)

Sriram

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Re: The Core of What Bothers Me About Donald Trump
« Reply #25 on: August 01, 2016, 09:10:26 AM »
I think we all need to worry if a climate change denier becomes leader of the world's largest CO2 emitting economy. People in that position need to be able to listen to advice, weigh things up and consider long term policy whereas Mr Trump comes across more like some opinionated bloke down the golf club after a couple of beers.  Maybe it's all front, calculated to appeal to a middle America tired of a politically correct political class; a man with a common touch, like Reagan, but with more hair.

I see a parallel in Trump's popularity with the UK Brexit vote; it is the ordinary working man making his voice heard, and his voice is saying that he is not really interested the aspirations and vision and progressive agendas of the political class.  It's a selling out of long term vision for a narrower, short term, self interest.


Yes...I've said that in my  post no 1. I also see a parallel between the Brexit vote and the  Trump issue. All the status quo people don't like Brexit and Trump....based on rational thinking (so they believe!). 

These are emotional issues and rationality is not always the important thing. That is also probably the way it should be. Sometimes going with the 'heart' is important. Rational ideas are not always right. Rationality can be linear and short sighted.

Anyway, we  don't even know if Trump is going to be elected! So...it is all premature. If Trump does get elected...it'll be due to a majority vote and the others have to just lump it I suppose....a la Brexit!  ;)

Sriram

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Re: The Core of What Bothers Me About Donald Trump
« Reply #26 on: August 01, 2016, 09:21:49 AM »
What we do not know is how Indian media are treating the US presidential campaign. India is busy positioning itself as a major regional power and not give this process the same kind of attention and analysis as the UK media.


 
Here, I think, Sriram may be a little off target. In the US constitution the president IS pivotal. All federal executive authority is possessed by the president alone - the "Cabinet" is a cabinet of advisors and each individual can only act with the authority of the president. Cabinet members are appointed by the president and can be dismissed by him. A President Trump (ugh) will appoint people who share his (myopic and astigmatic) vision.

A President Trump (ugh) will relish opposition from the other powers of government. It will give him the opportunity to do what he does best - vilify, excoriate and insult those whom he perceives to stand in his way or fail to meet his expectations of "Americanism". He will present himself as the champion of the tribal reactionary. America will suffer. The world will suffer. India will suffer.

Look at what has happened just during the last day or so. He insults the parents of a dead American "hero" who happened to be a muslim. Does he try to extract himself from this gaffe? No, he appears blissfully ignorant of the pain he has caused.



Bollocks.


Oh... come on!  America is not as  influential as you seem to think.  China, Russia, Japan, Saudi... all have leaders and policies that are  not favored by  many people.....and these are big influential countries.  So what?  Why is America so important?

Old equations are changing. In India we are not bothered who comes in America or Britain or Japan or Germany or France or China. Things will go on pretty much the same. 

America, Japan and Europe will decline. China and India will grow.  That's a given!



Bubbles

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Re: The Core of What Bothers Me About Donald Trump
« Reply #27 on: August 01, 2016, 09:49:23 AM »
Keith,

We are emotional beings. Rational thinking is just a tool we use now and then...and not a part of our being. 

Like I said and like you also pointed out...every now and then we feel the need to do something different, something daring, something that will break the monotony.  Enough of the same thing over and over again. Enough of the controls.

Sometimes it happens even in politics. If things get too prim and propah, too boring and predictable, we like to stir things up a bit.  Some excitement. Take a chance and see what happens.

Someone strikes a cord about some issues that have been bothering us. Something emotional. Something primeval and fundamental. Then it can be very powerful and overpowering. Rationality is weak and tiresome in comparison.

Why do you think ISIS is so powerful? Why is religion in general so powerful?

Its not just about hate. Its about basic emotions being stirred up.  It can make people feel alive and powerful.

Like with Hitler in WW2 and the holocaust?

I don't think we see radicals getting into power riding in on a wave of emotions as a good thing Sriram.

I think we have learnt this can be very damaging to other people's human rights.

Donald Trump tends to ride in on emotions and sentiments which in themselves are found worrying.

That's how Hitler got where he did, by promising to make Germany great again and of course it's always someone else's fault the country is held back.
Excitement often involves harming people and their livelihoods in some way.

The system doesn't always succeed in holding things back, sometimes the system becomes part of the problem.

 :(

The problem is stability and peace  often means boring and predictable, it's when it's gone you realise what you have lost.

There is an old Chinese curse that nails it.

" may you live in interesting times"

Some people don't like Brexit for the very reason it rocks the stability. Opens up perceived opportunities for the racist and white movements in this country, hence the rise in hate crime.

It's all " excitement " that's how they see it.  It isn't good though, that excitement.

The opportunities Brexit may bring up, hopefully won't allow those people to feel powerful and alive as you put it, for much longer.

Hopefully most of the UK will rise to its opportunities without stooping to racism and nastiness.

Donald Trump concerns me because he doesn't seem to consider other people, he is a show off that scores points at the cost of other people's feelings.

His business reputation seems to be appallingly selfish with no consideration for others I've read some awful stories where he has ruthlessly almost put companies out of business, and has used and manipulated the law along with threats to duck out of agreements.

His values and mine seem to be at variance.

He isn't someone that can be trusted, his aim is to win, how he gets there doesn't matter as long as he cant be penalised for it.

For me, how someone gets there, is all.

This will effect other countries in that our countries will have to deal with him.

I'm not happy about that  >:(

I wouldn't want to have to do business with Donald Trump.

I'm hoping Hilary Clinton gets in.



« Last Edit: August 01, 2016, 10:10:07 AM by Rose »

Bubbles

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« Last Edit: August 01, 2016, 10:26:17 AM by Rose »

Sriram

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Re: The Core of What Bothers Me About Donald Trump
« Reply #29 on: August 01, 2016, 10:27:35 AM »


I am believer in destiny.  If  things are predetermined, there is nothing we can do. Regardless of how much we fret and fume...that's the way it will go. 

floo

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Re: The Core of What Bothers Me About Donald Trump
« Reply #30 on: August 01, 2016, 10:32:44 AM »

I am believer in destiny.  If  things are predetermined, there is nothing we can do. Regardless of how much we fret and fume...that's the way it will go.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!

Sriram

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Re: The Core of What Bothers Me About Donald Trump
« Reply #31 on: August 01, 2016, 10:44:25 AM »
Donald trump


http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2016/06/09/donald-trump-unpaid-bills-republican-president-laswuits/85297274/

http://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21698613-what-small-businesses-owners-might-wish-know-about-mr-trump-scourge-not-saviour

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-us-2016-36936692

Rose...

Its true that Britain does have lot at stake in the US, more so because they have now cut themselves off from the EU.   Their one true friend now is the US.....and any iffy leadership there can be worrying.  Not so for most other countries. Makes no difference one way or the other.

Bubbles

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Re: The Core of What Bothers Me About Donald Trump
« Reply #32 on: August 01, 2016, 10:45:04 AM »

I am believer in destiny.  If  things are predetermined, there is nothing we can do. Regardless of how much we fret and fume...that's the way it will go.

Im a believer in fighting destiny, if it's wrong.

I'm certainly not going to accept something just because it is.

The whole point IMO is to get up and fight it.

Not resign yourself to it.

There may be nothing in the overall picture you can change, but it's important to stand up and fight the wrongness if you see it.

Accepting destiny is way to much a fatalistic way of looking at life for me.

If you don't like your destiny....... Change it!







« Last Edit: August 01, 2016, 10:57:44 AM by Rose »

Sriram

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Re: The Core of What Bothers Me About Donald Trump
« Reply #33 on: August 01, 2016, 10:48:09 AM »
Im a believer in fighting destiny, if it's wrong.

I'm certainly not going to accept something just because it is.

The whole point IMO is to get up and fight it.

Not resign yourself to it.

There may be nothing in the overall picture you can change, but it's important to stand up and fight the wrongness if you see it.


? ? ? ?

You are positioning yourself outside destiny.....which is weird. Destiny 'decides' what is right and wrong. Not you and me.

Bubbles

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Re: The Core of What Bothers Me About Donald Trump
« Reply #34 on: August 01, 2016, 11:00:41 AM »

? ? ? ?

You are positioning yourself outside destiny.....which is weird. Destiny 'decides' what is right and wrong. Not you and me.

I've never heard that before.

"Destiny decides what's right and wrong"?

Destiny to me is just a future that is just thought of, as being unavoidable.

IMO it is me that decides what is right and wrong, if I see a series of events as unavoidable then it's up to me how I react to it.

So say the holocaust was destiny, it's up to me to fight the wrongness in it. ( or of one I encounter in the future)

Just because an event is inevitable, doesn't make it right.

I think I see it as important to my " path" in life, that I fight a perceived wrongness in any destiny.

Does that make sense?

In some ways I am independant of destiny.

Like everyone else, I just live through it and my only choices are how I react to things around me.

I guess it's just how I personally see my path through life.

 ???



« Last Edit: August 01, 2016, 11:08:06 AM by Rose »

Harrowby Hall

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Re: The Core of What Bothers Me About Donald Trump
« Reply #35 on: August 01, 2016, 11:10:20 AM »

? ? ? ?

You are positioning yourself outside destiny.....which is weird. Destiny 'decides' what is right and wrong. Not you and me.

Destiny, Sriram? Do you really mean that everything is already mapped out for us and then we just passively accept it? Is a belief in destiny a feature of Indian culture? Do you think that you can change your destiny or is it fixed? If so, who does the fixing?

Destiny suggests a destination. How do we know whether we have arrived or not if we don't  even know where we are going?

No. I decide what I want to achieve and how I am going to get it. Some things in my life I have strived for and I have achieved them. Some things I have abandoned - but I deliberately did so. If humanity had placed its trust in destiny we would still be living in caves.

And as for the UK, the USA and the EU, we have not left the EU yet, and it may be several years before we do - if we do. I am hoping that the USA will see that it deserves more than the odious, vacuous, obnoxious Donald Trump as its chief executive and works to ensure it happens.
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Sriram

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Re: The Core of What Bothers Me About Donald Trump
« Reply #36 on: August 01, 2016, 11:13:57 AM »
Destiny, Sriram? Do you really mean that everything is already mapped out for us and then we just passively accept it? Is a belief in destiny a feature of Indian culture? Do you think that you can change your destiny or is it fixed? If so, who does the fixing?

Destiny suggests a destination. How do we know whether we have arrived or not if we don't  even know where we are going?

No. I decide what I want to achieve and how I am going to get it. Some things in my life I have strived for and I have achieved them. Some things I have abandoned - but I deliberately did so. If humanity had placed its trust in destiny we would still be living in caves.

And as for the UK, the USA and the EU, we have not left the EU yet, and it may be several years before we do - if we do. I am hoping that the USA will see that it deserves more than the odious, vacuous, obnoxious Donald Trump as its chief executive and works to ensure it happens.


Alright! Destiny is a subject that is outside the scope of this discussion...and is a very big subject in itself. So lets leave that aside.

About Trump....let us see what happens and then react.


Bubbles

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Re: The Core of What Bothers Me About Donald Trump
« Reply #37 on: August 01, 2016, 11:19:33 AM »
Destiny, Sriram? Do you really mean that everything is already mapped out for us and then we just passively accept it? Is a belief in destiny a feature of Indian culture? Do you think that you can change your destiny or is it fixed? If so, who does the fixing?

Destiny suggests a destination. How do we know whether we have arrived or not if we don't  even know where we are going?

No. I decide what I want to achieve and how I am going to get it. Some things in my life I have strived for and I have achieved them. Some things I have abandoned - but I deliberately did so. If humanity had placed its trust in destiny we would still be living in caves.

And as for the UK, the USA and the EU, we have not left the EU yet, and it may be several years before we do - if we do. I am hoping that the USA will see that it deserves more than the odious, vacuous, obnoxious Donald Trump as its chief executive and works to ensure it happens.

Harrowby

I'd love to explore destiny further and your post asks all the right questions.

You could start a new thread with it  :)

Or shall I?

Harrowby Hall

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Re: The Core of What Bothers Me About Donald Trump
« Reply #38 on: August 01, 2016, 12:16:21 PM »
Be my guest Rose. Give it a go.
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Bubbles

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Re: The Core of What Bothers Me About Donald Trump
« Reply #39 on: August 01, 2016, 01:00:55 PM »
Ok destiny, is now on religion and ethics

Brownie

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Re: The Core of What Bothers Me About Donald Trump
« Reply #40 on: August 01, 2016, 04:39:55 PM »
Wi-kid!
Let us profit by what every day and hour teaches us

jeremyp

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Re: The Core of What Bothers Me About Donald Trump
« Reply #41 on: August 01, 2016, 08:08:58 PM »
These are emotional issues and rationality is not always the important thing. That is also probably the way it should be.
No that's bollocks. When it comes to who runs the most powerful country on Earth, there really should be no room for emotion. Emotion is what led George W Bush into the Iraq war.

Quote
Sometimes going with the 'heart' is important. Rational ideas are not always right. Rationality can be linear and short sighted.

Bullshit. Rationality is frequently more right than emotion.

Quote
Anyway, we  don't even know if Trump is going to be elected!
Rationality tells us he won't be but if people vote on their emotion there might be an almighty fuck up.
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floo

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Re: The Core of What Bothers Me About Donald Trump
« Reply #42 on: August 02, 2016, 08:56:47 AM »
Trump is now claiming the Presidential election will be rigged. I bet if the worst happens and he wins, he will say it was free and fair!

Bubbles

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Re: The Core of What Bothers Me About Donald Trump
« Reply #43 on: August 02, 2016, 01:36:10 PM »
Trump is now claiming the Presidential election will be rigged. I bet if the worst happens and he wins, he will say it was free and fair!

Of course

The man is so afraid of failure he's getting his excuses ready.

It's always going to be someone else's fault.

Nearly Sane

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Re: The Core of What Bothers Me About Donald Trump
« Reply #44 on: August 02, 2016, 02:02:36 PM »
Of course

The man is so afraid of failure he's getting his excuses ready.

It's always going to be someone else's fault.


I would suggest that it's playing on the accusations from Bernie Sanders supporters that the Democratic nomination was corrupt, and the ongoing portrayal of Hilary as a crook. This isn't about losing, this is about making sure people think Hilary might fix this, and indeed that some Republicans might help by speaking against him.


L.A.

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Re: The Core of What Bothers Me About Donald Trump
« Reply #45 on: August 02, 2016, 03:23:33 PM »

I am believer in destiny.  If  things are predetermined, there is nothing we can do. Regardless of how much we fret and fume...that's the way it will go.

I find that a very depressing view of life  Sriram - that we just have to follow the predetermined track right up to the point of our demise.

I see life more like a pinball machine - although it is tempting just to follow the track that seems inevitable -  we can choose to press the 'nudge' buttons at critical moments.
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Hope

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Re: The Core of What Bothers Me About Donald Trump
« Reply #46 on: August 02, 2016, 06:39:06 PM »
I suppose the thing that really worries me about Trump is that he appears to be connecting with as many Americans as it seems he is.

Mind you, the same applies to Hilary, but she is the least bad choice of the two we currently have.  Pity that the Democrats didn't/don't have the guts to go with a Bernie Sanders-type candidate.
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floo

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Re: The Core of What Bothers Me About Donald Trump
« Reply #47 on: August 04, 2016, 03:24:52 PM »
I suppose the thing that really worries me about Trump is that he appears to be connecting with as many Americans as it seems he is.

Mind you, the same applies to Hilary, but she is the least bad choice of the two we currently have.  Pity that the Democrats didn't/don't have the guts to go with a Bernie Sanders-type candidate.

I agree. The trouble with Sanders is that he is into his 70s;  he looked a bit past it, and didn't look as if he could stay the course if he became President.

Udayana

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Re: The Core of What Bothers Me About Donald Trump
« Reply #48 on: August 04, 2016, 04:15:46 PM »
Age/ageism was a factor? Doubt it really. Democrats are "liberal" rather than "left wing" and the party bigwigs wouldn't want a socialist candidate. 
Ah, but I was so much older then ... I'm younger than that now

floo

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Re: The Core of What Bothers Me About Donald Trump
« Reply #49 on: August 25, 2016, 09:02:09 AM »
I see the nasty Farage is supporting the equally nasty Trump, racist birds of a feather!