Irish consequences of Brexit

[L.A.]

Another element of 'Project Fear' that is becoming Project Reality.

The problem was dismissed by that phrase and ignored (so much for investigative journalism!) - but it's certainly not gone away. We are left with a very serious problem that (for a change) is not simply economics.

Right now we have an open border between Northern Ireland and the Republic. This was one of the great achievements of the Good Friday agreement, and virtually everyone on both sides of the border consider this to be a good thing. It not only makes commerce much easier and simple between the two countries but greatly improves relationships between the two halves of Ireland.

All this is in  jeopardy because there now appears to be a fundamental problem:

Ireland will remain a member of the EU and as such will allow free movement of EU citizens, but if Britain does not allow free entry of EU citizens, there will be a stark choice:

1/ Close the border.

2/  Put passport control on all Irish ferry and flight routes.


Option 1 would infuriate virtually everyone on both sides of the border while option 2 would  send the Unionists ballistic!

We have friends in the Republic and they report that this is a great concern to everyone South of the border at the moment, largely because they fear it might reignite the conflict.

[Bubbles]

Or just allow those with a EU passport from Ireland free movement both ways.

We would have done the same with Scotland, why not Ireland?


If Scotland had become independant and stayed in the EU, it would have been approved without issue.

Because it's NI it's considered a problem.

It doesn't have to be.

Or is this something Brussels would block? Just because it could?

It wouldn't hurt the EU.


Tbh I haven't noticed that much difference when travelling to another EU country and a non EU country.
Apart from the limits of stuff you can bring in, as in duty free.

But then I usually fly.

Even going to Scotland from England  by flying you need your passport.

[Sebastian Toe]

But then I usually fly.

Even going to Scotland from England  by flying you need your passport.

No, you don't.

[Nearly Sane]

Or just allow those with a EU passport from Ireland free movement both ways.

We would have done the same with Scotland, why not Ireland?


If Scotland had become independant and stayed in the EU, it would have been approved without issue.

Because it's NI it's considered a problem.

It doesn't have to be.

Or is this something Brussels would block? Just because it could?

It wouldn't hurt the EU.


Tbh I haven't noticed that much difference when travelling to another EU country and a non EU country.
Apart from the limits of stuff you can bring in, as in duty free.

But then I usually fly.

Even going to Scotland from England  by flying you need your passport.

The question is a hard or soft border and is caused by there being a land border. If the idea is that the UK controls who comes in, then you neepd passport control. Given the land border this is difficult andcistly. The issue is not about whether Republic citizens going to NI and NI citizens going to the Republic to work on a daily basis will be refused but that they will still have to go to passport control.





You don't need a passport to fly to Scotland that's a requirement from low cost carriers and a driving licence will cover it as well. Flying BA and neither is needed.

[Bubbles]

No, you don't.

Yes you do.

To fly from England to Glasgow you need your passport.

[Sebastian Toe]

Yes you do.

To fly from England to Glasgow you need your passport.

No, you don't.

[L.A.]

Or just allow those with a EU passport from Ireland free movement both ways.

That misses the point Rose. The border between Northern Ireland and the Republic is long and twisted with numerous minor roads, tracks and footpaths crossing it. Even during the conflict it was near impossible to control - even with the massive military presence. What is more, it would cause massive resentment as communities found themselves isolated.

We would have done the same with Scotland, why not Ireland?

If Scotland had become independant and stayed in the EU, it would have been approved without issue.

That would have been an equally difficult task.

Because it's NI it's considered a problem.

It doesn't have to be.

 

The politics of Northern Ireland means that the consequences of getting it wrong are so much greater.

Tbh I haven't noticed that much difference when travelling to another EU country and a non EU country.
Apart from the limits of stuff you can bring in, as in duty free.

But then I usually fly.

Even going to Scotland from England  by flying you need your passport.

The fundamental problem Rose, is that in both cases, we have a long land border that is not easily controlled .

[L.A.]

No, you don't.

Most people probably do use their passport as a means of proving identity but there are other options.

[Sebastian Toe]

Most people probably do use their passport as a means of proving identity but there are other options.

I agree.

[Bubbles]

No, you don't.

You can't catch a plane in the same way you do a bus.

I can see some airlines might accept another form of photo ID.

But people have been turned away because they don't have the right photo ID.

Not everyone has a Driving licence with a photo and not all photo ids are acceptable.

You don't need any of that to get on a bus

[Harrowby Hall]

Most people probably do use their passport as a means of proving identity but there are other options.

Indeed.  When I fly to Jersey with BA I use my bus pass. I normally stand in a queue in which everyone else uses their passport,

[floo]

I could get an Irish passport if I needed one as I have dual British/Irish nationality since 2008. As I am not likely to go abroad again, or even on holiday to my home island, I doubt I will bother, but my siblings will probably get their Irish passports, especially the one who has a second home in Belgium.

[Sebastian Toe]

You can't catch a plane in the same way you do a bus.

I can see some airlines might accept another form of photo ID.

But people have been turned away because they don't have the right photo ID.

Not everyone has a Driving licence with a photo and not all photo ids are acceptable.

You don't need any of that to get on a bus

Not everyone has a passport either!

I take it that you now agree that you don't need a passport to fly from England to Scotland?

[L.A.]

But as I have pointed out - flights aren't the main problem - it's the massive land border where people expect to pass to and fro unimpeded - and it would be very difficult to stop them!

[Bubbles]

Not everyone has a passport either!

I take it that you now agree that you don't need a passport to fly from England to Scotland?

Yes, but a passport is more reliable than a bus pass.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/travel_news/article-2891027/Grandmother-85-stranded-Stansted-Airport-Ryanair-refuses-bus-pass-ID-despite-accepting-outbound-flight.html

It's much easier to just pack your passport, which is probably why companies tell their staff they just have to have a passport.

Some driving licences are unacceptable if they are not the photo kind,

I'm not sure I'd be happy with just a bus pass.

Hassle is still hassle.

[Nearly Sane]

Yes, but a passport is more reliable than a bus pass.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/travel_news/article-2891027/Grandmother-85-stranded-Stansted-Airport-Ryanair-refuses-bus-pass-ID-despite-accepting-outbound-flight.html

It's much easier to just pack your passport, which is probably why companies tell their staff they just need a passport.

Some driving licences are unacceptable if they are not the photo kind,

I'm not sure I'd be happy with just a bus pass.

Hassle is still hassle.

I don't need either to fly BA England Scotland
 The point is you made a statement that a passport was needed. It isn't. 


In addition you continue to ignore that the point is about a land border.

[Bubbles]

But as I have pointed out - flights aren't the main problem - it's the massive land border where people expect to pass to and fro unimpeded - and it would be very difficult to stop them!

They move freely now, why bother to change it?

Presumably people from outside the EU have to go through border controls anyway if they come to southern or Northern Ireland.

All you need to do is grant EU members the freedom to travel within the borders of NI and SI but not the UK mainland.

Anyone leaving Ireland without a NI passport has to go through customs anyway.

I don't see it as an issue and don't see why we can't amend the rules to suit NI, SI and their own interests.

It maybe NI might want to issue visas if people want to stay more than a certain time to stop total free movement and immigration.

But as I see it, since Brexit we can, ( within reason) make up our own rules as we go along.


We have to think " outside the box" for what works for us.

[Bubbles]

I don't need either to fly BA England Scotland
 The point is you made a statement that a passport was needed. It isn't. 


In addition you continue to ignore that the point is about a land border.

That's because I was told you needed a passport.

Looking into it, I can see it's not correct but saves employers having to fuss about things like what sort of driving licence have you got, and will you get turned away because your photo ID is the wrong sort, or even get turned away like the old lady in my link.

So they tell staff, you need a passport.

My mistake.

Land borders.

I'm not ignoring it, I just think you have to look at Ireland as a island and find answers that work within that island rather than annexed bits of the U.K.

Yes NI is part of the U.K. But it is also uniquely part of an island, which means you can look for a different answer one that suits both NI and SI.

[floo]

My UK passport expired last year, and I haven't bothered to renew it.

[L.A.]

They move freely now, why bother to change it?

Presumably people from outside the EU have to go through border controls anyway if they come to southern or Northern Ireland.

All you need to do is grant EU members the freedom to travel within the borders of NI and SI but not the UK mainland.

Anyone leaving Ireland without a NI passport has to go through customs anyway.

I don't see it as an issue and don't see why we can't amend the rules to suit NI, SI and their own interests.

It maybe NI might want to issue visas if people want to stay more than a certain time to stop total free movement and immigration.

But as I see it, since Brexit we can, ( within reason) make up our own rules as we go along.


We have to think " outside the box" for what works for us.

I think I would agree that something along those lines would be the only practical solution, but if NI isn't going to become a 'back door' into the UK, full passport and immigration checks would have to be implemented on all flights and ferries - which I strongly suspect would not please the Unionists.

[Harrowby Hall]

Land borders.

I'm not ignoring it, I just think you have to look at Ireland as a island and find answers that work within that island rather than annexed bits of the U.K.

Yes NI is part of the U.K. But it is also uniquely part of an island, which means you can look for a different answer one that suits both NI and SI.

So, we shall be left with two options:

1   Border posts along the land border within the island of Ireland. Everyone passing through the border will be required to establish their identity and their citizenship every time they cross the border. Even if they are only going to the nearest shop for some tea bags!

2   Everyone leaving the island of Ireland to travel to Great Britain will be required to establish their identity and their citizenship. And this will apply to UK citizens who are simply moving from one location in the UK to another location in the UK?

[floo]

For the last few years I have had to show my passport when travelling back to my home island, which I never had to do in the past.

[Bubbles]

So, we shall be left with two options:

1   Border posts along the land border within the island of Ireland. Everyone passing through the border will be required to establish their identity and their citizenship every time they cross the border. Even if they are only going to the nearest shop for some tea bags!

2   Everyone leaving the island of Ireland to travel to Great Britain will be required to establish their identity and their citizenship. And this will apply to UK citizens who are simply moving from one location in the UK to another location in the UK?

Im sure we can work something out with those passports with the chips to make it less laborious for the people in NI to visit mainland uk.

So they can come easily into mainland uk, just as they do now.

I'm sure there is an answer, we have the technology now 

All they need is a special chip, then just carry on as normal.

The chip might not even have to be on a passport.

[Aruntraveller]

A special chip?

I wonder how much it will cost to implement the special chip.

Chipping away at the £350 million.

[Bubbles]

A special chip?

I wonder how much it will cost to implement the special chip.

Chipping away at the £350 million.

Passports aren't free though, the cost would have to go against all passports.