Destiny

[Bubbles]

Hi

I was interested in some comments on destiny so will post a few posts to raise discussion in that direction.

Quote from: Rose on Today at 10:45:04 AM

Im a believer in fighting destiny, if it's wrong.

I'm certainly not going to accept something just because it is.

The whole point IMO is to get up and fight it.

Not resign yourself to it.

There may be nothing in the overall picture you can change, but it's important to stand up and fight the wrongness if you see it.


Post by Sriram

? ? ? ?

You are positioning yourself outside destiny.....which is weird. Destiny 'decides' what is right and wrong. Not you and me.

Post by Harrowby Hall



Destiny, Sriram? Do you really mean that everything is already mapped out for us and then we just passively accept it? Is a belief in destiny a feature of Indian culture? Do you think that you can change your destiny or is it fixed? If so, who does the fixing?

Destiny suggests a destination. How do we know whether we have arrived or not if we don't  even know where we are going?

No. I decide what I want to achieve and how I am going to get it. Some things in my life I have strived for and I have achieved them. Some things I have abandoned - but I deliberately did so. If humanity had placed its trust in destiny we would still be living in caves.

And as for the UK, the USA and the EU, we have not left the EU yet, and it may be several years before we do - if we do. I am hoping that the USA will see that it deserves more than the odious, vacuous, obnoxious Donald Trump as its chief executive and works to ensure it happens.

Post by Sriram




Alright! Destiny is a subject that is outside the scope of this discussion...and is a very big subject in itself. So lets leave that aside.

About Trump....let us see what happens and then react.

So how would you Sriram answer the questions in Harrowby's Post?

Do you really mean that everything is already mapped out for us and then we just passively accept it? Is a belief in destiny a feature of Indian culture? Do you think that you can change your destiny or is it fixed? If so, who does the fixing?

Destiny suggests a destination. How do we know whether we have arrived or not if we don't  even know where we are going?

So destiny, is there such a thing?

What is destiny? Should we fight it ? Or accept it?

Is destiny always right? As I feel Srirams post implies.

[Bubbles]

This was my response to Srirams post

Quote from: Sriram on Today at 10:48:09 AM

? ? ? ?

You are positioning yourself outside destiny.....which is weird. Destiny 'decides' what is right and wrong. Not you and me.
Xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


My response

I've never heard that before.

"Destiny decides what's right and wrong"?

Destiny to me is just a future that is just thought of, as being unavoidable.

IMO it is me that decides what is right and wrong, if I see a series of events as unavoidable then it's up to me how I react to it.

So say the holocaust was destiny, it's up to me to fight the wrongness in it. ( or of one I encounter in the future)

Just because an event is inevitable, doesn't make it right.

I think I see it as important to my " path" in life, that I fight a perceived wrongness in any destiny.

Does that make sense?

In some ways I am independant of destiny.

Like everyone else, I just live through it and my only choices are how I react to things around me.

I guess it's just how I personally see my path through life.

 

Please add your thoughts.

[torridon]

Hi

I was interested in some comments on destiny so will post a few posts to raise discussion in that direction.


So how would you Sriram answer the questions in Harrowby's Post?

So destiny, is there such a thing?

What is destiny? Should we fight it ? Or accept it?

Is destiny always right? As I feel Srirams post implies.

No such thing as destiny; or at least no justification for such a position.

What the evidence does suggest, is that whatever indeterminacy may exist in base levels of reality averages out at the level of natural laws that affect our everyday lives, resulting in determinism, for all practical purposes.  This is superficially a similar position to destiny, but without the teleological overtones.

[SusanDoris]

It is quite simple: there is no such thing as destiny, nothing that is 'meant to be'. Because we humans have had long experience of living, we know that the world will keep turning, and that all living things will die.
Our evolved brains enable us to imagine what might or might not happen in the future, but there is nothing actually existing beyond this moment. Any belief that there is, is a delusion.

(Okay, I am ignoring relativity where it might be an hour or so ahead of Earth time somewhere else in the universe!)

[Aruntraveller]

If everything is predestined shouldn't we all just sit on the sofa and wait for it all to happen?

It must save a lot of bother and time not worrying about things or not trying to change things.

Still if all Indians had just sat at home would Gandhi's movement for independence been as successful as it was?

And I know I'm being oversimplistic with my argument - but that's because I think the whole idea of Destiny is oversimplistic and quite frankly a cop out.

[Udayana]

Some are destined to believe in Destiny and some are not.

Luckily she has arranged things to ensure that there are enough people whose destiny is to rush around trying to achieve something or other. The rest of us can spectate.

Ultimately we are destined to be unable to do anything about anything!

hmm... just like India?

[ekim]

Destiny might not be the right word.  I don't know what Sriram was implying as I haven't read the thread involved, but perhaps the idea is associated with Karma and Samsara where actions in one life predispose you to reactions in the same life but in a later reincarnation.  I think that the idea is not to sit back and let it happen but to work towards moksha or freedom from those cycles of birth and rebirth.

[SusanDoris]

Destiny might not be the right word.  I don't know what Sriram was implying as I haven't read the thread involved, but perhaps the idea is associated with Karma and Samsara where actions in one life predispose you to reactions in the same life but in a later reincarnation.  I think that the idea is not to sit back and let it happen but to work towards moksha or freedom from those cycles of birth and rebirth.

SSuch a waste of living and thinking time though, to spend any of it worrying that one might be messing things up, instead of understanding oneself as a human being, behaving and being as the humans we have evolved to be; taking both credit and responsibility for all we do, not ascribing it to some imagined source.

[floo]

Life is what we make of it, imo.

[ekim]

SSuch a waste of living and thinking time though, to spend any of it worrying that one might be messing things up, instead of understanding oneself as a human being, behaving and being as the humans we have evolved to be; taking both credit and responsibility for all we do, not ascribing it to some imagined source.

That sounds like the politicians' charter but, yes, understanding oneself is part of the process of moksha, I believe, so that one is not driven to act by past predispositions especially when they are self centred.  However, some, it seems, can be predisposed towards a lazy fatalism e.g. what can I do, it's in my karma or it's God's Will.

[Sriram]

Hi Rose,

Life is predetermined....that is almost certain.  Initial conditions determining subsequent events is a part of Chaos theory. Once initial conditions are set, all other events follow automatically....unless there is some kind of external influence. Therefore predetermination is not under question, I think.

Whether this predetermination happens due to chance factors (as atheists believe) or due to some Conscious intervention (as I and many others believe) is a matter of debate.

Conscious predetermination is what I call destiny. It has a set goal and objective for life.

I will not be able to prove that there is such a conscious intervention. It is just something I believe.

Good night!

[Harrowby Hall]

Sriram

Show me an atheist who believes in predetermination!

[Sriram]

Sriram

Show me an atheist who believes in predetermination!

You just don't know your fellow atheists...do you?!  Just ask around this board and you'll find many.

It's a scientific idea, not a supernatural one.

[SusanDoris]

You just don't know your fellow atheists...do you?!  Just ask around this board and you'll find many.

It's a scientific idea, not a supernatural one.

What is your definition of:
(a) pre-determination
(b) destiny

My death is pre-determined, i,e. that it will happen but the actual cause and date are not pre-determined.

You were asked to show HH an atheist who believes in pre-determination. You think 'many' atheists on this board believe in destiny? Name them!! Or did you accidentally on purpose confuse that term with pre-determination, or your version of it?

[torridon]

You just don't know your fellow atheists...do you?!  Just ask around this board and you'll find many.

It's a scientific idea, not a supernatural one.

Not really. 

Just to be pedantic, 'predeterminism' is not a scientific idea, it carries a teleological implication; whilst determinism might sound superficially similar to predeterminism and predestination, the difference is that the latter two both imply a conscious purposeful direction to events.  Determinism merely acknowledges the apparent fidelity and inevitability inherent in natural law and draws conclusions from that.

[Sriram]

Not really. 

Just to be pedantic, 'predeterminism' is not a scientific idea, it carries a teleological implication; whilst determinism might sound superficially similar to predeterminism and predestination, the difference is that the latter two both imply a conscious purposeful direction to events.  Determinism merely acknowledges the apparent fidelity and inevitability inherent in natural law and draws conclusions from that.

You are being pedantic...yes!    you know very well what I mean by predetermination. We have discussed it before.

Anyway...guys, I will not be available for a couple of weeks as I am off to Europe.

I'll be staying at the Copthorne Kensington, London for a couple of days before proceeding to Paris.  If you happen to see a guy, brown, spectacles, french beard and looking very touristy....that's probably me! 

I hope the ISIS maintains a low profile!

Cheers.

Sriram

[torridon]

Have a good trip.  Be sure to try a pint of English bitter.  If you get homesick for a veg thali you could head to Wembley or Southall - there are huge Indian communities there. 

[Sriram]

Have a good trip.  Be sure to try a pint of English bitter.  If you get homesick for a veg thali you could head to Wembley or Southall - there are huge Indian communities there. 

Thanks torridon. 

Since London is the beginning of the trip I think we'll prefer some western food (veg) for a change. I am sure however that by the time we complete the tour we'll  be dying for some Indian food!   

Cheers......see you later.

Sriram

[ekim]

You are being pedantic...yes!    you know very well what I mean by predetermination. We have discussed it before.

Anyway...guys, I will not be available for a couple of weeks as I am off to Europe.

I'll be staying at the Copthorne Kensington, London for a couple of days before proceeding to Paris.  If you happen to see a guy, brown, spectacles, french beard and looking very touristy....that's probably me! 

I hope the ISIS maintains a low profile!

Cheers.

Sriram

If you should see Jack Knave on the plane, do not call out Hi Jack.  Hope you have a good holiday.  Be sure to bring some sunshine with you, we have already had our two days of summer.

[Harrowby Hall]

Have a good trip, Sriram.

I am in SW France at the moment. I think that you would prefer the weather where I am. It's sunny with clear blue skies (rather humid, though). But that's my destiny - the devil looks after his own ....

[Jack Knave]

Some are destined to believe in Destiny and some are not.

Bugger!!!!

[Jack Knave]

If you should see Jack Knave on the plane, do not call out Hi Jack. 

Unless he stows away on my private jet he won't see me!!! 

[Sriram]

Hi everyone,

I am back in India after a wonderful but hectic two weeks. Covered most of Europe from London, north sea to Rome.

Europe is very different (as is to be expected) from what I saw in 1971. And even London is somewhat different from what I saw in 1995.

They are still wonderful and beautiful places and we had lots of fun. People generally were very good and warm. Great infrastructure and facilities. No noise, no pollution.  Not a single hitch in the whole trip. People have lot of pride and respect for history.

You guys started off with great facilities and  infrastructure more than 100 years back...which is truly amazing! We in India are only now trying to catch up.

However, what struck me was that India has now become very similar to these places in the past few decades. When I came back I  didn't really find India to be very different. It is of course, much more densely populated, dirtier and chaotic with lot more poverty.....but lots of things are now more or less similar.

1. European cities are now dirtier than what I remember. Paris in particular was filthy in some parts. Lots of poor people hanging around. Heathrow airport is surely dirtier than I remember it.

2. Small towns like Eindhoven, Volendam, Cologne, Black forest, Lucerne  etc. were beautiful little places. Almost pristine.

3. Cafe culture is everywhere but they don't seem to welcome tourists or coloured people in such places.

4. Indian food (veg) is available EVERYWHERE.  We had great Indian food for lunch and dinner all the 15 days all across Europe.....imagine that!!  Many Indian restaurants in Netherlands, Florence, Pisa and even up Mount Titlis and Jungfrau in Switzerland. Great!

5. We also tried lots of European food but it was disappointing. We get better crepes, waffles, pizzas, pasta, French fries etc. where I live. Cheese is not something I enjoy much anyway.

6. What was surprising compared to my earlier visits, was that pornography was  conspicuous by its absence. Completely nil! Not a single magazine or paper anywhere. The only nude we saw was David by Michaelangelo (ans other sundry chaps)!  This is a great development. And this is true even in Netherlands(Amsterdam), France, Germany, Swiss and Italy. Very surprising!!  Internet has been largely responsible for that I suppose.

7. Smoking seems to be very common in Europe while in India we have banned it in all public places including streets. Drinking is also very common of course in all cafes in every street corner. 

8. Bollywood seems to be more prominent in Madame Tussaud's than Hollywood, quite surprisingly.  (I even took a selfie with my favorite heroine Katrina - my sister in law says we look like father/daughter, which is besides the point ....... ).

9. Lots of Chinese/Korean/Japanese tourists everywhere. 

10. Brexit or even the recession doesn't seem to have done much damage. Everything looks wonderful (at least to a tourist).

You guys have a great country and have managed to maintain it well over the centuries. All credit to you guys.  Keep it that way.

Just some random comments. 

Cheers.

Sriram


 

[Aruntraveller]

Nice to hear your thoughts, Sririam.

Only one quibble - I wouldn't call Cologne a small town!

And Cologne is now much dirtier than it used to be. I've been going there for the last 20 years and there has been a gradual deterioration in the state of its cleanliness and overall maintenance.

Still a great place to visit though 

[torridon]

Hi everyone,

I am back in India after a wonderful but hectic two weeks. Covered most of Europe from London, north sea to Rome.

Europe is very different (as is to be expected) from what I saw in 1971. And even London is somewhat different from what I saw in 1995.

They are still wonderful and beautiful places and we had lots of fun. People generally were very good and warm. Great infrastructure and facilities. No noise, no pollution.  Not a single hitch in the whole trip. People have lot of pride and respect for history.

You guys started off with great facilities and  infrastructure more than 100 years back...which is truly amazing! We in India are only now trying to catch up.

However, what struck me was that India has now become very similar to these places in the past few decades. When I came back I  didn't really find India to be very different. It is of course, much more densely populated, dirtier and chaotic with lot more poverty.....but lots of things are now more or less similar.

1. European cities are now dirtier than what I remember. Paris in particular was filthy in some parts. Lots of poor people hanging around. Heathrow airport is surely dirtier than I remember it.

2. Small towns like Eindhoven, Volendam, Cologne, Black forest, Lucerne  etc. were beautiful little places. Almost pristine.

3. Cafe culture is everywhere but they don't seem to welcome tourists or coloured people in such places.

4. Indian food (veg) is available EVERYWHERE.  We had great Indian food for lunch and dinner all the 15 days all across Europe.....imagine that!!  Many Indian restaurants in Netherlands, Florence, Pisa and even up Mount Titlis and Jungfrau in Switzerland. Great!

5. We also tried lots of European food but it was disappointing. We get better crepes, waffles, pizzas, pasta, French fries etc. where I live. Cheese is not something I enjoy much anyway.

6. What was surprising compared to my earlier visits, was that pornography was  conspicuous by its absence. Completely nil! Not a single magazine or paper anywhere. The only nude we saw was David by Michaelangelo (ans other sundry chaps)!  This is a great development. And this is true even in Netherlands(Amsterdam), France, Germany, Swiss and Italy. Very surprising!!  Internet has been largely responsible for that I suppose.

7. Smoking seems to be very common in Europe while in India we have banned it in all public places including streets. Drinking is also very common of course in all cafes in every street corner. 

8. Bollywood seems to be more prominent in Madame Tussaud's than Hollywood, quite surprisingly.  (I even took a selfie with my favorite heroine Katrina - my sister in law says we look like father/daughter, which is besides the point ....... ).

9. Lots of Chinese/Korean/Japanese tourists everywhere. 

10. Brexit or even the recession doesn't seem to have done much damage. Everything looks wonderful (at least to a tourist).

You guys have a great country and have managed to maintain it well over the centuries. All credit to you guys.  Keep it that way.

Just some random comments. 

Cheers.

Sriram

Nice to read your perspectives, and glad you enjoyed the trip.  I might be doing the reverse later, got a wedding in India coming up and I haven't been for a few years now so am looking forward to seeing how things have changed since the days when I used to go backpacking around India and Nepal ..