Twenty strange religious beliefs

[floo]

The Elim Pentecostal church I attended as a kid had three members who used to favour us with gobbledegook, aka speaking in tongues, most weeks. They would interrupt whatever else was going on with their daft squawking. A lot of the other members of the congregation found it embarrassing, but the kids thought it hilarious and had to stifle giggles. 

[floo]

There was a poster on the old BBC R&E called Luther Wesley Baxter (or something very similar) who used to say that Christians needed to be born again - but 'from above', where the 'from above' element was important.

I can't remember what this 'from above' involved, but perhaps someone else might.

I remember him, I suspect he also posted on this forum too under another name. Half the time people didn't know what he was on about.

[Bubbles]

There was a poster on the old BBC R&E called Luther Wesley Baxter (or something very similar) who used to say that Christians needed to be born again - but 'from above', where the 'from above' element was important.

I can't remember what this 'from above' involved, but perhaps someone else might.

Yes I remember him too.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/mbreligion/MP13668671

Being "born from above"  usually seems to mean that the person has to receive one of the recognised gifts of the spirit "from above".

Basically it's saying that just becoming a Christian and getting baptised isn't enough it needs a response of some sort ( usually gift of the spirit) and the receiver is aware of a response from the Holy Ghost.

I think that's how he meant it.

[Bubbles]

"Except a man be born again," He said, "he cannot see the Kingdom of God." In other words, the Kingdom is not made up of mortal, flesh-and-blood human beings (see I Cor. 15:42-50). Therefore, to see the Kingdom--to enter into it and become a part of it--a person must become something other than a mortal, flesh-and-blood human being. He must be changed from mortal to immortal, from corruptible flesh to incorruptible spirit.
He must be born again!!
"Again" or "From Above"?
The Greek word translated "again" (John 3:3, "born again"), is rendered "from above" in many modern English translations. The word is anothen, and can mean "from above," "anew," "from the top," and "from the first." In John's gospel, the term usually means "from above" (see John 3:31; 19:11), but that doesn't mean that "from above" is always the preferred translation. Many commentators claim that anothen should be translated "from above" in John 3:3.
But should it? Rather than go to Greek scholars and assume they speak the language Jesus and the Apostles spoke, let's go to someone who definitely spoke the language of Jesus. His name is Nicodemus!
In response to Jesus' startling statement, Nicodemus asked, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?" (John 3:4)
Clearly, Nicodemus understood Jesus to say that a man must be born anew--a "second time"--to see the Kingdom of God. The idea of receiving the Holy Spirit "from above" was well known to the Jews, as was the concept of being "made new" through healing of infirmities. Had Jesus used a word that meant "from above," Nicodemus would have thought Jesus was speaking of a spiritual "birth," or "renewal," through reception of the Holy Spirit.
It seems that virtually every commentator assumes that the conversation between Jesus and Nicodemus took place in Greek. They then proceed to explore the various nuances of meanings of the Greek words used in the text.
But keep in mind that both Jesus and Nicodemus spoke Aramaic fluently, and that this conversation probably--almost certainly--took place in Aramaic, not Greek. So regardless the nuances of meaning of a single Greek term, it is clear that Nicodemus did not hear Jesus say anything that remotely resembled "spiritual renewal from above"! Rather, he understood Him to say that a man must come forth from the womb a second time!

http://7times.org/newsletter/bornagain.shtml

[Bubbles]

This catholic site puts it better

How and when this rebirth occurs is something that various Christian traditions understand differently. For instance, an Evangelical Christian might say he is born again when he "accepts Jesus Christ as his personal Lord and Savior." A member of a Pentecostal or Charismatic church might say she is born again when she is "baptized in the Spirit" and receives the gift of tongues as a confirmation. The words may be different, and the expectations may vary, but each person is reflecting on his or her own experience of God bringing someone from darkness to light.


http://catholicexchange.com/what-does-it-mean-to-be-born-from-above

I think Wesley was saying he believed you had to get a response from the HG to be " born from above"

It's a bit like an acceptance of your being saved.

[Bubbles]

The Elim Pentecostal church I attended as a kid had three members who used to favour us with gobbledegook, aka speaking in tongues, most weeks. They would interrupt whatever else was going on with their daft squawking. A lot of the other members of the congregation found it embarrassing, but the kids thought it hilarious and had to stifle giggles.

I can imagine.

[Bubbles]

Just out of interest you can look up the archived BBC messageboards here

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/mbreligion/

[Bubbles]

I remember him, I suspect he also posted on this forum too under another name. Half the time people didn't know what he was on about.

Yes, you were flower weren't you?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/mbreligion/NF2213235?thread=8245407

You seemed to get on with him

[floo]

Yes, you were flower weren't you?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/mbreligion/NF2213235?thread=8245407

You seemed to get on with him

Really well, LOL! Did you read the rest of my posts directed at the guy?

[Bubbles]

Really well, LOL! Did you read the rest of my posts directed at the guy?

No, but you seemed to think he was treated unfairly there.

It was just the one I came across 

There were lots of posters that didn't make much sense, persecuted was one.

TW used to post and another that has been here before, Atruster.

[floo]

No, but you seemed to think he was treated unfairly there.

It was just the one I came across 

There were lots of posters that didn't make much sense, persecuted was one.

TW used to post and another that has been here before, Atruster.

Read the rest of those posts, and you will see that I didn't exactly rate the guy.

I wonder what has happened to Nicholas Marks?

[Spud]

The Elim Pentecostal church I attended as a kid had three members who used to favour us with gobbledegook, aka speaking in tongues, most weeks. They would interrupt whatever else was going on with their daft squawking. A lot of the other members of the congregation found it embarrassing, but the kids thought it hilarious and had to stifle giggles.

At first I thought you said, interpret, and was hopeful, but then I saw you wrote interrupt.
Tongues were always meant to be interpreted so people can understand.

[Hope]

I think it is mainstream, but what the interpretation of what it means to be born again , varies.

Couldn't agree more, Rose.  It is why I always challenge Floo when she makes her blanket categorisations. 

[Hope]

I don't agree because the understanding isn't the same.

There are different ideas of what born again means.

What it means in the c of e isn't what it means in your Pentecostal church.

Baptists have different ideas to the c of e for example.

Whilst the various denominations have different interpretations, the concept of being born again is one that was introduced by Jesus Christ himself.  As such, it is a core/mainstream concept in Christianity.  It isn't the wayout idea that Floo likes to suggest it is.  She has a habit of taking the most extreme of forms of the faith and trying to make out that they are 'mainstream', and therefore that the whole faith is not to be trusted.

[floo]

Couldn't agree more, Rose.  It is why I always challenge Floo when she makes her blanket categorisations.

Oh what a hoot, you don't make blanket categorisations of course!

[Hope]

Oh what a hoot, you don't make blanket categorisations of course!

I have been known to, and I have generally apologised for doing so, as I try hard not to make such generalisations.  Sometimes, one makes them when trying to start a conversation/debate, or when trying to make a point.

[floo]

I have been known to, and I have generally apologised for doing so, as I try hard not to make such generalisations.  Sometimes, one makes them when trying to start a conversation/debate, or when trying to make a point.

Where the 'born again' dogma is concerned I make no apology for my POV on that topic having been a victim of that extreme nastiness.

[Hope]

Where the 'born again' dogma is concerned I make no apology for my POV on that topic having been a victim of that extreme nastiness.

No, you weren't a victim of 'that extreme nastiness', Floo.  You were victim of a particularly extreme interpretation of the concept.  Tere ios a huge difference which, even you, will appreciate if you think about the two concepts.

[ippy]

No, you weren't a victim of 'that extreme nastiness', Floo.  You were victim of a particularly extreme interpretation of the concept.  Tere ios a huge difference which, even you, will appreciate if you think about the two concepts.

That's all they are, they're only ideas/concepts so why let yourselves get upset by any of it?

ippy

[Hope]

That's all they are, they're only ideas/concepts so why let yourselves get upset by any of it?

ippy

You're entitled to your opinion; whether there is any evidence for it is open to debate.

[floo]

No, you weren't a victim of 'that extreme nastiness', Floo.  You were victim of a particularly extreme interpretation of the concept.  Tere ios a huge difference which, even you, will appreciate if you think about the two concepts.

Don't ALL 'born agains' believe that if you don't get 'saved' you will go to hell, however good and decent you are? It is madness to believe someone who has been evil all their life could make a deathbed conversion and go straight to heaven.

[Spud]

Floo,
Not being given the punishment they deserve: isn't that how the principle of sending criminals to prison instead of eye-for-eye punishment operates? For example, someone deserves to be executed if they've committed murder. But sending them to prison gives them the chance to reform, even if they stay in prison for life.

[ippy]

You're entitled to your opinion; whether there is any evidence for it is open to debate.

Not again Hope? When will it ever sink in? You're still nibbling around the edges with your beloved and obvious to almost anyone else, nonsensical N P F silliness.

ippy

[Hope]

Not again Hope? When will it ever sink in? You're still nibbling around the edges with your beloved and obvious to almost anyone else, nonsensical N P F silliness.

ippy

Again, you're entitled to your opinion.  However, you have no right to impose it on others, especially when you have no evidence for its correctness.

[floo]

Floo,
Not being given the punishment they deserve: isn't that how the principle of sending criminals to prison instead of eye-for-eye punishment operates? For example, someone deserves to be executed if they've committed murder. But sending them to prison gives them the chance to reform, even if they stay in prison for life.

That isn't the point! I am saying it is a crazy scenario that someone who has been really bad could make a deathbed conversion and go to heaven, but a good person who hasn't converted will go to hell.