Twenty strange religious beliefs

[floo]

Again, you're entitled to your opinion.  However, you have no right to impose it on others, especially when you have no evidence for its correctness.

Surely you are imposing your less than credible opinions on us without verifiable evidence to back them up.

[trippymonkey]

That's why it's all BOLLOX, Floo.

(But sending them to prison gives them the chance to reform, even if they stay in prison for life.
Now THAT'S sadistic, no ?
Nick

[ippy]

Again, you're entitled to your opinion.  However, you have no right to impose it on others, especially when you have no evidence for its correctness.

Ah I see, it still hasn't sunk in yet, not to worry Hope.

ippy

[Spud]

That isn't the point! I am saying it is a crazy scenario that someone who has been really bad could make a deathbed conversion and go to heaven, but a good person who hasn't converted will go to hell.

How do we know if someone is good? Not wanting to make myself look better than anyone else or anything, but to illustrate: I found an elderly chap sitting on the pavement near the station at 6.00am in the winter a few years ago. He'd gone out thinking he might be in time to get to the chemist before it shut (disorientated obviously) and had slipped over and couldn't get up. While I was talking to him finding out what was going on, probably a dozen or so commuters walked past without saying a word. I was quite surprised that people wbo look like good people would ignore someone in trouble. I think the point is that people are only good when it suits them. This means that we all fall short, whether or not we think we are good. Any amount of shortfall is enough to keep us out of heaven. So if nobody is good enough for heaven, how can anyone get in? They need to be humble first, to the point where they confess they are unable to be good.
Does that explain it?

[floo]

How do we know if someone is good? Not wanting to make myself look better than anyone else or anything, but to illustrate: I found an elderly chap sitting on the pavement near the station at 6.00am in the winter a few years ago. He'd gone out thinking he might be in time to get to the chemist before it shut (disorientated obviously) and had slipped over and couldn't get up. While I was talking to him finding out what was going on, probably a dozen or so commuters walked past without saying a word. I was quite surprised that people wbo look like good people would ignore someone in trouble. I think the point is that people are only good when it suits them. This means that we all fall short, whether or not we think we are good. Any amount of shortfall is enough to keep us out of heaven. So if nobody is good enough for heaven, how can anyone get in? They need to be humble first, to the point where they confess they are unable to be good.
Does that explain it?

Of course that doesn't explain it, DUH!

Let's use the example of Hitler, who had millions of Jews, as well as the disabled and homosexuals exterminated. If the 'born again' position is true, that evil guy could have converted on his deathbed and gone to heaven, whereas someone who has done their best to help others throughout their life, but not a convert, would go to hell. Where is the justice in that?

Besides which, as I have pointed out boringly often, even Hitler is not as bad as the god of the Bible if the deeds attributed to it were true.

[Brownie]

I think the idea is that we are in no position to judge the state of someone else's salvation, floo, because we do not walk in their shoes.  We can only look at ourselves and when we do, we generally think, "Could do better".

[floo]

I think the idea is that we are in no position to judge the state of someone else's salvation, floo, because we do not walk in their shoes.  We can only look at ourselves and when we do, we generally think, "Could do better".

There is no salvation to judge, imo!

[BeRational]

I think the idea is that we are in no position to judge the state of someone else's salvation, floo, because we do not walk in their shoes.  We can only look at ourselves and when we do, we generally think, "Could do better".

You first have to establish that there is any salvation at all.

You must not just presuppose and assert it, as that is wrong thinking.

[Brownie]

I was merely outlining the Christian position BeR, in response to what floo said about bad people supposedly going to Heaven, I wasno' saying anyone else has to believe it.

[trippymonkey]

Call yerself a Christian ?!!?? TUT TUT !!!

[Hope]

That isn't the point! I am saying it is a crazy scenario that someone who has been really bad could make a deathbed conversion and go to heaven, but a good person who hasn't converted will go to hell.

Floo, anyone could have a deathbed conversion, but neither you nor I (nor anyone here, for that matter) will know exactly what that conversion means to them.  In other words, was it something done 'just to be on the safe side', or was it truly meant.  God, on the other hand, will know exactly the purpose and will deal accordingly.  Similarly, a good person might choose not to go down that route on the grounds that they don't want to compromise their atheistic or other belief.  Out of interest, why would a good person, who ius also an atheist want to be in the presence of the God they have - in the case of some here - vigorously denounced and/or whose very existence they have denied?

[jeremyp]

These do not represent strange beliefs.

I think problem is the definition of the word "strange". Your idea of what is strange is probably a little different to Rose's. Your idea of what is strange is almost certainly very different to most people who lived before Kepler. It would have seemed quite bizarre and stupid to believe the Earth goes around the Sun.

[ippy]

Couldn't help noticing again you don't seem to be able to get your head around atheism, admittedly I've taken this part of your post out of context, where you have said,

 " their atheistic or other belief",

 I like most atheists don't believe that gods do or don't exist, there's no belief involved it's a fact that there is no evidence that would support the idea of anything you might like to describe as a god, does in fact exist.

It often makes me wonder why you can't get your head around some of the most basic of facts like this one?

ippy

[trippymonkey]

Do atheists ever wonder how & why we came into existence?

[Gordon]

Do atheists ever wonder how & why we came into existence?

Currently the best explanation for 'how' would be the TofE: 'why' doesn't sound like a valid question.

[Hope]

Currently the best explanation for 'how' would be the TofE: 'why' doesn't sound like a valid question.

Why doesn't 'why' sound a valid question, Gordon?  Surely, it should be amongst the first tranch of questions being asked - in the same way that it is amongst the first tranch of questions asked at just about every other aspect of human life.

[Gordon]

Why doesn't 'why' sound a valid question, Gordon?  Surely, it should be amongst the first tranch of questions being asked - in the same way that it is amongst the first tranch of questions asked at just about every other aspect of human life.

Then tell me 'why' are there rattlesnakes?

[Hope]

Then tell me 'why' are there rattlesnakes?

Rattlesnakes are predators that live in a wide array of habitats, hunting small animals such as birds and rodents

wikipedia

[jeremyp]

Do atheists ever wonder how & why we came into existence?

Yep.

[Gordon]

wikipedia

Nope - that tells me 'what' they are along with some of their characteristics but it doesn't tell me 'why' there are rattlesnakes in the first place.

[jeremyp]

Rattlesnakes are predators that live in a wide array of habitats, hunting small animals such as birds and rodents

wikipedia

That's the answer to "what are rattlesnakes?" not "why are there rattlesnakes?"

[Spud]

Of course that doesn't explain it, DUH!

Let's use the example of Hitler, who had millions of Jews, as well as the disabled and homosexuals exterminated. If the 'born again' position is true, that evil guy could have converted on his deathbed and gone to heaven, whereas someone who has done their best to help others throughout their life, but not a convert, would go to hell. Where is the justice in that?

Besides which, as I have pointed out boringly often, even Hitler is not as bad as the god of the Bible if the deeds attributed to it were true.

We've already mentioned the warlord of the Mau Maus in the USA who is born again, and has undoubtedly hurt a lot of people and probably worse So we have a real example to help with your hypothetical scenario. It may be that in general, people who have committed murder are so far away from God that they cannot repent; cases like Nicky Cruz are unique, and their purpose is to enable large numbers of criminals to be dealt with, through the conversion of a prominent member.

[Bubbles]

Then tell me 'why' are there rattlesnakes?

To keep Lyme disease in check   


https://cmns.umd.edu/news-events/features/1162

[Gordon]

To keep Lyme disease in check   


https://cmns.umd.edu/news-events/features/1162

Then 'why' are there the ticks that cause this disease?

[Bubbles]

Then 'why' are there the ticks that cause this disease?

Personally, I believe that's how ecology works.

Something fills a niche, and something else tends to keep it in check.

That's one of the reasons some scientists are concerned, human beings have often been culled by disease when there are a lot of us.

Some scientists say it's just a matter of time, given how well viruses etc evolve, that one day something will dramatically reduce our numbers.

It's happened before, but now there are many more of us.

Lyme disease is just a bacteria that has evolved to survive with ticks.

http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Lyme-disease/Pages/Introduction.aspx#diagnosis


The reason it exists is it has evolved into a ecological niche, just like the rattlesnake.

Some people see an order in ecology, how the system works,  how animals adapt etc. Some call the order God or proof of God.

Some find it too ordered to have happened randomly

Others don't.

It's in the eye of the beholder.