Free Movement of Labour

[jeremyp]

Since the beginning of human history (perhaps even before) people have always migrated to the best places to eke out a living.

Why is it suddenly so important to stop it happening?

[Jack Knave]

Finite planet, 7 billion people.....actually you are implying that people in the past didn't mind it but this isn't true, and usually they were brought in as slaves. Often this caused revolts and conflicts.

[jeremyp]

Finite planet, 7 billion people

How will hoarding bits of it help?

actually you are implying that people in the past didn't mind

Nope.

it but this isn't true, and usually they were brought in as slaves.

Usuallly? Did we bring all the West Indians in as slaves and the Indians and Pakistanis? Was the net immigration of British citizens in the 80's the result of Germans taking slaves?

Often this caused revolts and conflicts.

What do you think happens when one country has lots of lovely resources and refuses to trade with others less fortunate?

[Jack Knave]

How will hoarding bits of it help?

I was just referring to the growing pressure and human nature.

Nope.

Yes you were.

Usuallly? Did we bring all the West Indians in as slaves and the Indians and Pakistanis? Was the net immigration of British citizens in the 80's the result of Germans taking slaves?

I'm going way further back than that.

What do you think happens when one country has lots of lovely resources and refuses to trade with others less fortunate?

You weren't talking about resources.

[jeremyp]

I was just referring to the growing pressure and human nature.

So how will hoarding bits of it help? Human nature means people will always migrate to where they can make a better living. That's human nature. Instead of stopping it we need to embrace it.

 

I'm going way further back than that.

Good for you.

You weren't talking about resources.

Labour is a resource.

[Spud]

Since the beginning of human history (perhaps even before) people have always migrated to the best places to eke out a living.

Why is it suddenly so important to stop it happening?

In today's Telegraph:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/2967374/England-is-most-crowded-country-in-Europe.html

Which I was saying before the referendum.

Perhaps also look at why USA and Canada don't have free movement of labour between the two.

[jeremyp]

In today's Telegraph:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/2967374/England-is-most-crowded-country-in-Europe.html

Which I was saying before the referendum.

But there aren't too many people living here.

Perhaps also look at why USA and Canada don't have free movement of labour between the two.

Don't they?

[Spud]

But there aren't too many people living here.
Don't they?

There could be if measures are not in place to prevent it.
As far as I know the USA and Canada have free trade but not free movement.

[wigginhall]

There's also the strange fact that many Leave areas have low immigration.  I saw a programme on Sunderland, whose result really woke people up by voting Leave quite heavily, and it claimed that Sunderland has 3% foreign immigrants.   Where I live in London is about 40%, and it voted about 70% Remain.   It's as if areas which are used to lots of people moving in and out are OK with it, and those who are not familiar with it, don't want it.   Probably other reasons.

[L.A.]

There's also the strange fact that many Leave areas have low immigration.  I saw a programme on Sunderland, whose result really woke people up by voting Leave quite heavily, and it claimed that Sunderland has 3% foreign immigrants.   Where I live in London is about 40%, and it voted about 70% Remain.   It's as if areas which are used to lots of people moving in and out are OK with it, and those who are not familiar with it, don't want it.   Probably other reasons.

I expect you would see a correlation between fear of immigration and sales of certain tabloid newspapers.

[wigginhall]

In any case, the movement of labour is determined by the economy.  In times of boom, shortages of labour are created, which suck in labour from abroad.  Traditionally, in the UK this was from Ireland, which supplied unskilled and semi-skilled labour, which dug roads, and so on.   

Hence, the idea of controlling immigration is quite weird, since you can't control boom and bust in the economy, and hence the flow of labour which expands and contracts accordingly.

So if you put a freeze on labour movements, you run the risk of freezing the economy.   

[jeremyp]

There's also the strange fact that many Leave areas have low immigration.  I saw a programme on Sunderland, whose result really woke people up by voting Leave quite heavily, and it claimed that Sunderland has 3% foreign immigrants.   Where I live in London is about 40%, and it voted about 70% Remain.   It's as if areas which are used to lots of people moving in and out are OK with it, and those who are not familiar with it, don't want it.   Probably other reasons.

There's nothing strange about it at all. Firstly, many of the immigrants had votes and I think you'll find their vote was skewed towards Remain. Secondly, people in London are more likely to have been exposed to foreign immigrants and therefore know that the fear mongering is just that.

ETA: Sorry, I see you already covered my second point. The immigration fear is just fear of the unknown.

[floo]

We need people coming to work in the UK, doctors for instance. There are too few British medics to staff the hospitals, apparently.

[Spud]

There's nothing strange about it at all. Firstly, many of the immigrants had votes and I think you'll find their vote was skewed towards Remain. Secondly, people in London are more likely to have been exposed to foreign immigrants and therefore know that the fear mongering is just that.

ETA: Sorry, I see you already covered my second point. The immigration fear is just fear of the unknown.

But it does seem to be putting a strain on the country in general. Everyone who comes here wants a car; I remember when you could drive round the M25 without a hitch, but now you get stuck big time, and even the fourth lane on the M25 hasn't solved the problem.

[wigginhall]

Much better to have a stagnant economy and less traffic!

[L.A.]

But it does seem to be putting a strain on the country in general. Everyone who comes here wants a car; I remember when you could drive round the M25 without a hitch, but now you get stuck big time, and even the fourth lane on the M25 hasn't solved the problem.

I think the main problem is this:

It is generally reckoned that most migrants more than pay their way because (contrary to what the tabloids might have suggested) most work hard, pay taxes and do not live off benefits. This means more income for government which they might reasonably be expected to spend on schools, doctors, roads and other infrastructure to match the increased population - but they clearly haven't!

[Sebastian Toe]

But it does seem to be putting a strain on the country in general. Everyone who comes here wants a car; I remember when you could drive round the M25 without a hitch, but now you get stuck big time, and even the fourth lane on the M25 hasn't solved the problem.

Does someone give them free cars or do they have to work to buy them?

[Jack Knave]

So how will hoarding bits of it help? Human nature means people will always migrate to where they can make a better living. That's human nature. Instead of stopping it we need to embrace it.

One thing you have demonstrated over these many exchanges you have a very poor understanding of what human nature is. This leads me to conclude you must be pretty shallow.

Labour is a resource.

Not when it is in excess. You can have too much labour, which is surplus to demand, but not too much gold.

[Jack Knave]

There's also the strange fact that many Leave areas have low immigration.  I saw a programme on Sunderland, whose result really woke people up by voting Leave quite heavily, and it claimed that Sunderland has 3% foreign immigrants.   Where I live in London is about 40%, and it voted about 70% Remain.   It's as if areas which are used to lots of people moving in and out are OK with it, and those who are not familiar with it, don't want it.   Probably other reasons.

It is also about jobs, or lack of them, and people not sharing in the boom years.

[jeremyp]

But it does seem to be putting a strain on the country in general.

No it doesn't.

Everyone who comes here wants a car; I remember when you could drive round the M25 without a hitch,

No you don't. The M25 was over capacity from the minute it was opened.

[jeremyp]

One thing you have demonstrated over these many exchanges you have a very poor understanding of what human nature is. This leads me to conclude you must be pretty shallow.

Not when it is in excess. You can have too much labour, which is surplus to demand, but not too much gold.

I think we all have a pretty good grasp on your nature.

Can you point to any historical event where we have successfully stopped immigrants? Normally, we don't even try.

[wigginhall]

You tend to get a surplus of labour in conditions of slump or recession.   In boom conditions, shortages of labour are common, esp. in the building trade, catering, agriculture.   I don't see how governments are able to intervene in this, especially if they are believers in the free market.   A shortage of labour will inevitably suck in fresh labour, and an excess will tend to shed jobs.   In fact, if you do intervene, you risk an economic freeze.

[L.A.]

You tend to get a surplus of labour in conditions of slump or recession.   In boom conditions, shortages of labour are common, esp. in the building trade, catering, agriculture.   I don't see how governments are able to intervene in this, especially if they are believers in the free market.   A shortage of labour will inevitably suck in fresh labour, and an excess will tend to shed jobs.   In fact, if you do intervene, you risk an economic freeze.

Which could well be on the way.

[Spud]

No it doesn't.

No you don't. The M25 was over capacity from the minute it was opened.

Whether or not immigration is putting a strain on it, I can tell you that it is much worse. I drove all the way around it in one go on at least two occasions between about 2000 and 2010, and did numerous other journeys. Traffic used to slow down to 20 mph at junctions during rush hour. Now it completely stops, seemingly every day without fail, with tail backs miles long.

http://tinyurl.com/jkybw2m

[L.A.]

Whether or not immigration is putting a strain on it, I can tell you that it is much worse. I drove all the way around it in one go on at least two occasions between about 2000 and 2010, and did numerous other journeys. Traffic used to slow down to 20 mph at junctions during rush hour. Now it completely stops, seemingly every day without fail, with tail backs miles long.

http://tinyurl.com/jkybw2m

I'm sure that you are correct that traffic generally is increasing, but migrants are a very small factor in that increase.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/feb/11/british-road-traffic-increased-record-22-per-cent-last-year

"The DfT said the higher traffic reflected growth in the UK economy, while lower fuel prices may also have contributed."