Author Topic: Christian Zionists and antisemitism  (Read 20265 times)

SteveH

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Christian Zionists and antisemitism
« on: August 15, 2016, 10:21:53 PM »
Christian Zionists - i.e. the staunch defenders of Israel, mostly from the charismatic, fundamentalist and dispensationalist camps - are tiresomely fond of accusing of antisemitism those of us who think that invading someone else's land and chucking them out is not cricket, and if the critics are Jewish themselves, not to be deprived of their favourite knee-jerk response, they accuse them of being self-hating Jews. I think it's about time to turn the tables on them. It is possible to be a Christian Zionist and an antisemite, as appears to have been the case with the recently clog-popped Tim LaHaye, who was a defender of Israel against all comers, but who also once said that it was a pity that so many brilliant Jewish minds had cleaved to ideologies which were harmful to humanity, which is an antisemitic statement if ever there was one: it's true, of course, but no more so than it is of brilliant minds in general, so why did he specify Jewish ones?
As a matter of fact, belief in Israel as the eternally-promised homeland of the Jews, and that the return of the Jews to Israel is a necessary precursor to the return of Christ, dovetails neatly with one particular manifestation of antisemitism: that which says that, since the Jews now have Israel, they should all be there, and not here. There is a hint of this in those nutty Christian groups which try to persuade Jewish people to emigrate to Israel, and provide help in doing so. It is certainly true that the existence of Israel can encourage antisemitism: there used to be a Jewish community in Iraq - it was small, but very ancient, probably dating all the way back to the first-century diaspora. It doesn't exist any more, because Saddam Hussein chucked them all out, specifically arguing that they could go an live in Israel, so they had no grounds for complaint. That, presumably, is precisely what they did, but the point is that you shouldn't treat people as political pawns like that.
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Brownie

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Re: Christian Zionists and antisemitism
« Reply #1 on: August 16, 2016, 12:30:51 AM »
As you might expect, I am in complete agreement with you on this issue Steve.
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Christian Zionists and antisemitism
« Reply #2 on: August 16, 2016, 09:18:54 AM »
Christian Zionists - i.e. the staunch defenders of Israel, mostly from the charismatic, fundamentalist and dispensationalist camps - are tiresomely fond of accusing of antisemitism those of us who think that invading someone else's land and chucking them out is not cricket, and if the critics are Jewish themselves, not to be deprived of their favourite knee-jerk response, they accuse them of being self-hating Jews. I think it's about time to turn the tables on them. It is possible to be a Christian Zionist and an antisemite, as appears to have been the case with the recently clog-popped Tim LaHaye, who was a defender of Israel against all comers, but who also once said that it was a pity that so many brilliant Jewish minds had cleaved to ideologies which were harmful to humanity, which is an antisemitic statement if ever there was one: it's true, of course, but no more so than it is of brilliant minds in general, so why did he specify Jewish ones?
As a matter of fact, belief in Israel as the eternally-promised homeland of the Jews, and that the return of the Jews to Israel is a necessary precursor to the return of Christ, dovetails neatly with one particular manifestation of antisemitism: that which says that, since the Jews now have Israel, they should all be there, and not here. There is a hint of this in those nutty Christian groups which try to persuade Jewish people to emigrate to Israel, and provide help in doing so. It is certainly true that the existence of Israel can encourage antisemitism: there used to be a Jewish community in Iraq - it was small, but very ancient, probably dating all the way back to the first-century diaspora. It doesn't exist any more, because Saddam Hussein chucked them all out, specifically arguing that they could go an live in Israel, so they had no grounds for complaint. That, presumably, is precisely what they did, but the point is that you shouldn't treat people as political pawns like that.
Steve, are there any Zionists who aren't Christians?

Brownie

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Re: Christian Zionists and antisemitism
« Reply #3 on: August 16, 2016, 10:06:12 AM »
Steve will be back later on to speak for himself but, yes, of course the majority of Zionists are Jewish people and not Christian.  Christian Zionists are a different kettle of fish altogether.

I have a couple of links for anyone who is interested, it is indeed an interesting and complex subject:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Zionism/zionism.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism

Christian Zionism:   http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article35747.htm

This one embraces Christian Zionism with Biblical references, worth scrolling down a bit to get to the nitty gritty: http://www.equip.org/article/modern-israel-in-bible-prophecy-promised-return-or-impending-exile/

Anti-semitism accusationshttp://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-36160928

About Palestinehttp://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_early.php

(Several links which is a bit of a bore but people can pick and choose which, if any, they read.)
« Last Edit: August 16, 2016, 12:30:57 PM by Brownie »
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SteveH

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Re: Christian Zionists and antisemitism
« Reply #4 on: August 16, 2016, 02:06:53 PM »
Thanks for the links.
Yes, of course there are non-Christian Zionists.
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Jack Knave

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Re: Christian Zionists and antisemitism
« Reply #5 on: August 16, 2016, 08:16:56 PM »
As you might expect, I am in complete agreement with you on this issue Steve.
Not sure what the issue Steve is raising - all Jews to go to Israel?

trippymonkey

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Re: Christian Zionists and antisemitism
« Reply #6 on: August 16, 2016, 08:20:21 PM »
YA ZIG HEIL ?!?!!?
ETC ETC DOH ?!?!!?!? ;) ::) :o

Nearly Sane

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Re: Christian Zionists and antisemitism
« Reply #7 on: August 16, 2016, 08:42:01 PM »
YA ZIG HEIL ?!?!!?
ETC ETC DOH ?!?!!?!? ;) ::) :o
eh?

Brownie

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Re: Christian Zionists and antisemitism
« Reply #8 on: August 16, 2016, 09:50:41 PM »
Jack if you read Steve's post again he is quite clearly NOT saying all Jews should go to Israel, he is actually exasperated with those who do believe that. 

Trippy, what are you on?  Not very helpful, nor courteous to a new poster who has started a thread worthy of serious discussion.
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trippymonkey

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Re: Christian Zionists and antisemitism
« Reply #9 on: August 16, 2016, 09:51:14 PM »
Didn't someone else want rid of the Jews once- not so long ago ?!!?!?!?
DOHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

trippymonkey

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Re: Christian Zionists and antisemitism
« Reply #10 on: August 16, 2016, 09:52:25 PM »
Where dya get the idea I was accusing HIM of anything???
Now I recall why I'm so infrequent on these boards ?!?!?!!?

Brownie

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Re: Christian Zionists and antisemitism
« Reply #11 on: August 16, 2016, 10:04:48 PM »
I didn't say you were accusing him of anything: first para of my post was addressed to someone else, second para was to you.  Your response was somewhat childish, you didn't actually say anything!

Anyway let's not derail the thread which could actually be quite interesting.

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SteveH

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Re: Christian Zionists and antisemitism
« Reply #12 on: August 16, 2016, 10:16:06 PM »
Didn't someone else want rid of the Jews once- not so long ago ?!!?!?!?
DOHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
What the fuck are you wittering on about, you half-wit?
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Spud

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Re: Christian Zionists and antisemitism
« Reply #13 on: August 16, 2016, 10:18:31 PM »
I always thought that the state of Israel was primarily created for the protection of Jews. Zionism is wrong- hopefully people are aware of that.

trippymonkey

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Re: Christian Zionists and antisemitism
« Reply #14 on: August 16, 2016, 10:47:38 PM »
Agreed Brownie
SteveH can suck my........

ad_orientem

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Re: Christian Zionists and antisemitism
« Reply #15 on: August 17, 2016, 05:18:26 AM »
Zionism is profoundly un-Christian. Theologically it makes no sense whatsoever and counts as rank heresy along with Arianism, Iconoclasm etc. By denying that the Church is the true Israel of God it effectively denies salvation by grace and implies that God regards people merely by the fact that they have had their foreskin removed, don't eat pork etc. That's not to mention the injustices suffered by the Palestinian people, many of whom are Christians, but then they are the wrong type of Christian for the Zionists: the ancient type.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2016, 05:20:40 AM by ad_orientem »
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Ricky Spanish

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Re: Christian Zionists and antisemitism
« Reply #16 on: August 17, 2016, 07:28:43 AM »
Jack if you read Steve's post again he is quite clearly NOT saying all Jews should go to Israel, he is actually exasperated with those who do believe that. 


So does that mean that the jews should get the fuck out of Palestine and leave it for the Palestinians?
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Brownie

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Re: Christian Zionists and antisemitism
« Reply #17 on: August 17, 2016, 08:15:49 AM »
The thread is about Christian Zionism and it's implications.
West Bank and the Gaza Strip are Palestinian.  The State of Palestine has as much right to exist and be supported as does Israel, surely.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2016, 08:29:52 AM by Brownie »
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The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Christian Zionists and antisemitism
« Reply #18 on: August 17, 2016, 10:10:48 AM »
It is possible to be a Christian Zionist and an antisemite, as appears to have been the case with the recently clog-popped Tim LaHaye, who was a defender of Israel against all comers, but who also once said that it was a pity that so many brilliant Jewish minds had cleaved to ideologies which were harmful to humanity, which is an antisemitic statement if ever there was one: it's true, of course, but no more so than it is of brilliant minds in general, so why did he specify Jewish ones?
I disagree with this point. I would argue that it would seem to be an antisemitic statement if he had said that the cleaving to harmful ideologies is caused by their Jewishness, or if he said this was a particular Jewish problem, but he doesn't say that. I would disagree that using the phrase "so many brilliant Jewish minds" think X, Y or Z negative thoughts, which doesn't suggest other minds don't also think those thoughts too, should be considered a problematic statement.

Of course others are free to disagree with my preference and see those words as antisemitic - words are often defined by consensus or official interpretation especially when used as part of legislation.


Quote
As a matter of fact, belief in Israel as the eternally-promised homeland of the Jews, and that the return of the Jews to Israel is a necessary precursor to the return of Christ, dovetails neatly with one particular manifestation of antisemitism: that which says that, since the Jews now have Israel, they should all be there, and not here. There is a hint of this in those nutty Christian groups which try to persuade Jewish people to emigrate to Israel, and provide help in doing so. It is certainly true that the existence of Israel can encourage antisemitism: there used to be a Jewish community in Iraq - it was small, but very ancient, probably dating all the way back to the first-century diaspora. It doesn't exist any more, because Saddam Hussein chucked them all out, specifically arguing that they could go an live in Israel, so they had no grounds for complaint. That, presumably, is precisely what they did, but the point is that you shouldn't treat people as political pawns like that.
There seem to be certain almost "nihilistic" groups, including some Muslim ones, who see the existence of the country, Israel, as some kind of opening ceremony to the end of the world - and are strangely looking forward to getting the show on the road.
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Aruntraveller

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Re: Christian Zionists and antisemitism
« Reply #19 on: August 17, 2016, 10:30:07 AM »
The thread is about Christian Zionism and it's implications.
West Bank and the Gaza Strip are Palestinian.  The State of Palestine has as much right to exist and be supported as does Israel, surely.

Yes - but which definition of the state of Palestine do you mean?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine

a quick wiki shows that even a basic definition depends on time and interpretation. Some would argue that the existence of Israel negates the existence of Palestine as it is historically defined.
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Brownie

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Re: Christian Zionists and antisemitism
« Reply #20 on: August 17, 2016, 11:27:01 AM »
I got this from wiki, Trent, and what constitutes Palestine is disputed:
The State of Palestine claims the West Bank (bordering Israel and Jordan) and Gaza Strip (bordering Israel and Egypt)[3] with East Jerusalem as the designated capital.[ii][4][5] Most of the areas claimed by the State of Palestine have been occupied by Israel since 1967 in the aftermath of the Six-Day War.[8] Its independence was declared on 15 November 1988 by the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) in Algiers as a government-in-exile.

It's the position of the Christian Zionists which is challenged in the op.
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Aruntraveller

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Re: Christian Zionists and antisemitism
« Reply #21 on: August 17, 2016, 11:54:05 AM »
I got this from wiki, Trent, and what constitutes Palestine is disputed:
The State of Palestine claims the West Bank (bordering Israel and Jordan) and Gaza Strip (bordering Israel and Egypt)[3] with East Jerusalem as the designated capital.[ii][4][5] Most of the areas claimed by the State of Palestine have been occupied by Israel since 1967 in the aftermath of the Six-Day War.[8] Its independence was declared on 15 November 1988 by the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) in Algiers as a government-in-exile.

It's the position of the Christian Zionists which is challenged in the op.

I know that but your previous post said that both states had a right to exist. So the question is, exist in what form?

The very definitions of the states are disputed by both sides. Which definitions do you choose?
« Last Edit: August 17, 2016, 12:07:29 PM by Trentvoyager »
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Brownie

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Re: Christian Zionists and antisemitism
« Reply #22 on: August 17, 2016, 01:41:37 PM »
Trent, if Palestinians were settled in an area for many years I believe they should be able to claim it as theirs without fear of being turfed out by the Israelis.
There must be enough room for both, surely.

Gabriella said:
There seem to be certain almost "nihilistic" groups, including some Muslim ones, who see the existence of the country, Israel, as some kind of opening ceremony to the end of the world - and are strangely looking forward to getting the show on the road.


That is very true with the city of Jerusalem playing a central part. The "Christian Zionists" are particularly strong on this but so are many Jewish sects and, as Gabriella said, some Muslims.
I came across this quite a lot on forums some years ago with Christians claiming Jerusalem as "ours".
« Last Edit: August 17, 2016, 01:50:23 PM by Brownie »
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Jack Knave

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Re: Christian Zionists and antisemitism
« Reply #23 on: August 17, 2016, 05:13:53 PM »
Jack if you read Steve's post again he is quite clearly NOT saying all Jews should go to Israel, he is actually exasperated with those who do believe that. 

Trippy, what are you on?  Not very helpful, nor courteous to a new poster who has started a thread worthy of serious discussion.
But that is not exactly a primary issue in this arena is it? I was expecting something with a lot more 'meat' on it. But as I couldn't see it (or missed it) I was left a bit flummoxed with his post.

Jack Knave

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Re: Christian Zionists and antisemitism
« Reply #24 on: August 17, 2016, 05:32:01 PM »
Why do they think that the return of the Jews to Israel should be a physical thing and not a spiritual one? Where Jew isn't the race but the believer in Christ and all that. Didn't Christ condemn the Jews?