Christian Zionists and antisemitism

[Brownie]

I could laugh, Spud, but it isn't really funny;  we all know there are many different strands to Christianity and that beliefs vary but nothing demonstrates that more than this thread don't you agree?

If it wasn't for what I perceive to be the dangers of Christian Zionism I honestly wouldn't care, but be quite content rarely thinking, never mind worrying, about any of it.
......

Ippy, I was wondering about the significance of you asking floo if her husband goes out wearing a white scarf and can't work out whether you are referring to the practice of Cyrano or the Dali Lama,  Most likely it is something else entirely, maybe naughty.  Too deep, do explain please.

[jeremyp]

God had a change of heart?

Yes, the first one was accidentally damaged beyond repair while it was being circumcised.

[Brownie]

  how did I know that was coming?

[floo]

Floo does your husband ever go out wearing a white scarf?

ippy

Ehhhhhhhhhhh?

[ad_orientem]

So God got it wrong with the everlasting bit then? God had a change of heart?

No. The covenant God made with Abraham is still everlasting only it has been renewed through Christ. Circumcision of the flesh always counted for nought unless that same person also had a contrite heart. Abraham was counted righteous by God even before he was circumcised. Circumcision of the flesh therefore is not necessary.

[floo]

No. The covenant God made with Abraham is still everlasting only it has been renewed through Christ. Circumcision of the flesh always counted for nought unless that same person also had a contrite heart. Abraham was counted righteous by God even before he was circumcised. Circumcision of the flesh therefore is not necessary.

Abraham, an abusive parent, who was willing to sacrifice his son, was definitely created in the image of god!

[ad_orientem]

Abraham, an abusive parent, who was willing to sacrifice his son, was definitely created in the image of god!

The sacrifice of Isaac is indeed a figure of Christ's sacrifice.

[floo]

The sacrifice of Isaac is indeed a figure of Christ's sacrifice.

DISGUSTING. Abraham was a crap father if that story was true, as is god!

[ad_orientem]

DISGUSTING. Abraham was a crap father if that story was true, as is god!

Yes yes! We all know what you think.

[Brownie]

Floo, Paul says that the story of Abraham is allegorical, or that it may be interpreted as such (which is in line with mainstream Christian thinking).

See Galatians 4:21-31, I can't copy the entire text and post it, despite trying a few times, but here is the bit where he specifically says that:
24 Now this may be interpreted allegorically (ESV)

[floo]

Floo, Paul says that the story of Abraham is allegorical, or that it may be interpreted as such (which is in line with mainstream Christian thinking).

See Galatians 4:21-31, I can't copy the entire text and post it, despite trying a few times, but here is the bit where he specifically says that:
24 Now this may be interpreted allegorically (ESV)

Allegorical or not, the tale is still unpleasant!

[Brownie]

Well you don't have to read it any more, floo, you are free.  I clearly remember saying and writing my own objections years ago when I was doing RE and having it explained to me.  A lot of allegorical stories, across the board, are somewhat unpalatable.

I wonder if Jewish Orthodox view Abraham's story as allegorical?  (I expect some do, some don't, some are undecided.)

[ad_orientem]

An allegorical understanding doesn't necessarily deny the literal. In otherwords, one can believe that Abraham really did take Isaac to be sacrificed and that the angel saved Isaac at the last minute but also believe that it is an allegory of something else, namely Christ's sacrifice which was to come. That would be the traditional understanding and mine also.

[ippy]

An algorical understanding doesn't necesarilly deny the literal necessarilly. In otherwords, one can believe that Abraham really did take Isaac to be sacraficed and that the angel saved Isaac at the last minute but also believe that it also is an allegory of something else, namely Christ's sacrifice. That would be the traditional understanding and mine also.

It never ceases to amaze me how determined you religious people are to believe in this preposterous nonsense, I thought those divers in the Olympics were good at twisting and turning.

ippy   

[floo]

Supposing the story of Jesus dying to save others had any validity, his 'sacrifice' wasn't nearly as great as those, who have died saving people. Jesus is supposed to have popped up alive three days later, whereas everyone else stayed dead!

[Brownie]

Floo, you may feel like that now but you must have been told the meanings of Biblical stories when you were a youngster, being as you had church going parents and went to church yourself, albeit forced.  It is possible to reject it all later on but still understand what is behind the faith of believers.

[Jack Knave]

DISGUSTING. Abraham was a crap father if that story was true, as is god!

Where's social services when you need them?

[Jack Knave]

Well you don't have to read it any more, floo, you are free.  I clearly remember saying and writing my own objections years ago when I was doing RE and having it explained to me.  A lot of allegorical stories, across the board, are somewhat unpalatable.

I wonder if Jewish Orthodox view Abraham's story as allegorical?  (I expect some do, some don't, some are undecided.)

They can't do because they circumcise their children, and so believe what it says.

[Brownie]

I was reading about circumcision (yeah I have all the fun), prompted by this thread, and there is a lot of info about the procedure, performed on adults as well as children, including comments from those who have had it for various reasons.  Not one negative I have to say which surprised me.  I wasn't looking at the religious aspects because we've been doing that here.

Anyway, the general consensus seemed to be that people in hot countries where water is in short supply routinely had and have their boys circumcised for hygiene reasons.  Must admit I thought that because I know it is commonly done in Africa and most of (not all) the Indian subcontinent, and the middle east.

Well, the Jewish people started off in a hot country so it figures.  It has become embedded in Jewish culture so all boys are circumcised regardless of where they live or whether their parents are religious.

[SweetPea]

It never ceases to amaze me how determined you religious people are to believe in this preposterous nonsense, I thought those divers in the Olympics were good at twisting and turning.

ippy

..... and it never ceases to amaze me how you guys (the t'other side) will bend over backwards to keep folk away from knowledge of the Creator.

[SweetPea]

Brownie (up thread).... it is a shame there are no Jewish posters here. I don't think there ever have been on this forum.

[Brownie]

When the forum first started there were some who had previously posted on the Jewish Topic at the BBC.  They thought it would be the same as the Beeb but every thread in the Jewish Topic on here was started by a Christian and was very pro-Christian, rather confrontational towards the Jews who hardly had a look in so they faded away.  They must have been very disappointed.  I joined thinking it was a replica of the BBC R&E forum, so it was up to a point but definitely not on the Jewish topic, probably not on the Muslim and Eastern either.  Thinking about it, the Muslim topic on here now is not particularly respectful to Islam and Gabriella is the only Muslim who posts.   (One could say much the same about the Christian bit I suppose but there are more of us.) 

On the Beeb, Christians were not allowed to proselytise on the Jewish Topic though they were welcome to ask polite questions.  There were some really good posters who could teach us all quite a bit.  Anyway I faded away from here too until last year.  Very glad to be back but, as you say, we could do with some Jewish posters.

[Nearly Sane]

..... and it never ceases to amaze me how you guys (the t'other side) will bend over backwards to keep folk away from knowledge of the Creator.

thank you so kindly for stating that I am lying.

[floo]

Where's social services when you need them?

They certainly would have had their work cut out for them in Biblical times!

[ippy]

..... and it never ceases to amaze me how you guys (the t'other side) will bend over backwards to keep folk away from knowledge of the Creator.

Sweet pea, that's the trouble, when asked you're all unable to back up these rather strange beliefs with anything that might support them.

If you want to make stories up about leprechauns unicorns or creators, on my part, feel free to fill your boots, just don't expect us to step back and let you get away with it if you start teaching this religious nonsense to our children as though you're teaching them facts.

ippy