Christian Zionists and antisemitism

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Sweet pea, that's the trouble, when asked you're all unable to back up these rather strange beliefs with anything that might support them.

If you want to make stories up about leprechauns unicorns or creators, on my part, feel free to fill your boots, just don't expect us to step back and let you get away with it if you start teaching this religious nonsense to our children as though you're teaching them facts.

ippy   

All children should be taught to investigate for themselves. Not as I suspect you want, indoctrinated into being antitheists.

[Brownie]

Your use of the generic "you" ippy is somewhat disconcerting because I don't teach anything like that to kids and we have had no evidence so far that Sweet Pea does.  Undoubtedly some people do but they are few and far between in this country.  I've just seen Vlad's comment and agree with him that, when it comes to beliefs, children must be able to work things out for themselves.

So, if we leave the teaching aside, we are OK to believe in leprechauns, unicorns or anything else.  You are equally free not to believe.

Now we're all happy, what shall we talk about :-) ?
(Still waiting to hear what you meant by the "white scarf" comment to floo, my mind has been working overtime trying to work it out.)

[floo]

All children should be taught to investigate for themselves. Not as I suspect you want, indoctrinated into being antitheists.

Our children were encouraged to make up their own minds about religion. Our three girls are Christians, but moderate in their beliefs.

[jeremyp]

No. The covenant God made with Abraham is still everlasting only it has been renewed through Christ.

More word salad. If it was everlasting, it wouldn't need renewing by definition.

Circumcision of the flesh always counted for nought unless that same person also had a contrite heart. Abraham was counted righteous by God even before he was circumcised. Circumcision of the flesh therefore is not necessary.

I always thought this circumcision thing was a bit bizarre. God asks Jews to mutilate themselves as a sign but they are not allowed to display the sign in public.

[Jack Knave]

Our children were encouraged to make up their own minds about religion. Our three girls are Christians, but moderate in their beliefs.

Really? That must grind your axe, considering the bile that emanates from your posts to Christians/believers and the like!!!

Actually thinking about it that explains your bile. You can't give it your kids so you vent your spleen here instead.

[Brownie]

Floo isn't alone there Jack and she does talk about other things, sometimes quite humourously.
It's not a good idea to turn discussions round to our families though, that's my only criticism.

[ippy]

All children should be taught to investigate for themselves. Not as I suspect you want, indoctrinated into being antitheists.

How many times do I need to say young children should be taught to think for themselves before they are taught any kind of dogma, as though whatever the dogma, is the truth.

What is difficult about the above to understand? I've never wanted anything other than the above.

You obviously like your quota of fariy stories, well that's all fine and dandy Vlad, but for the umteenth time again, don't teach your fairy, magical, mystical and superstition based stories to our young children as though they are true stories.

ippy

[Brownie]

Does he though?

[ippy]

Your use of the generic "you" ippy is somewhat disconcerting because I don't teach anything like that to kids and we have had no evidence so far that Sweet Pea does.  Undoubtedly some people do but they are few and far between in this country.  I've just seen Vlad's comment and agree with him that, when it comes to beliefs, children must be able to work things out for themselves.

So, if we leave the teaching aside, we are OK to believe in leprechauns, unicorns or anything else.  You are equally free not to believe.

Now we're all happy, what shall we talk about :-) ?
(Still waiting to hear what you meant by the "white scarf" comment to floo, my mind has been working overtime trying to work it out.)

You can speak for yourself Brownie, I'll be a lot happier when the religious lose their privilleged access to our very young children here in the U K, if it's not such a big issue why are the C of E clinging onto this particular privilege, one of many, like grimm death?

Do you really think religious organisations have/had no idea that children don't usually acquire the ability to challenge untill around the age of seven years, the majority of C of E faith schools here in the U K are for children of this young age group, I wonder why?

I'm sure we will rout religion from our schools eventually, we'll keep chipping away; it is a fact that religion forms an enormous part of our history and it would be wrong to try to bury it.

ippy

[ippy]

Does he though?

Brownie, he has a history of not wanting to understand secularism, I'm only reminding him, so the general secularist wish to rout religion from schools doen't mean we would want to surplant religion with any other agenda, other than teaching this vunerable group of young children how to think for themselves.

If wanting to teaching children to think for themselves amounts to indoctrination, I'll put my hands up and plead guilty to that one.

ippy

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Brownie, he has a history of not wanting to understand secularism, I'm only reminding him, so the general secularist wish to rout religion from schools doen't mean we would want to surplant religion with any other agenda, other than teaching this vunerable group of young children how to think for themselves.

If wanting to teaching children to think for themselves amounts to indoctrination, I'll put my hands up and plead guilty to that one.

ippy

Secular Humanists are at perfect liberty to start schools or to form academy trusts. That many schools are church foundation says something about which bodies had most social concern in the past. That Secular Humanists are not founding schools but hoping for a free take over ostensibly to satisfy their beliefs now says something about their social concern today.

In any case. We live in a secular country. IF you are frustrated by progress in the Rout of religion have you considered that the person in the street considers your brand of secularism humanism unacceptable and somewhat swivel eyed.

[ad_orientem]

How many times do I need to say young children should be taught to think for themselves before they are taught any kind of dogma, as though whatever the dogma, is the truth.

What is difficult about the above to understand? I've never wanted anything other than the above.

You obviously like your quota of fariy stories, well that's all fine and dandy Vlad, but for the umteenth time again, don't teach your fairy, magical, mystical and superstition based stories to our young children as though they are true stories.

ippy

Each parent has the right to to bring their children up to believe in God. If you say nay then you're a fascist.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Each parent has the right to to bring their children up to believe in God. If you say nay then you're a fascist.

If Stalin was a fascist then I agree with you.

[jeremyp]

Each parent has the right to to bring their children up to believe in God. If you say nay then you're a fascist.

So you'd stand by the rights of muslims and hindus to bring up their children to believe in their respective gods even though you believe they are the wrong gods.

[ad_orientem]

So you'd stand by the rights of muslims and hindus to bring up their children to believe in their respective gods even though you believe they are the wrong gods.

Indeed.

[floo]

People who force children to follow their own take on religion or agnosticism are very wrong. We cannot prove there is/isn't a god of some sort, therefore it is up to each individual to make up their own minds on the topic, just as we allowed our own kids to do. My husband and I might not see things the way they do, but we are extremely proud of them as they are thoroughly decent people.

[ippy]

Each parent has the right to to bring their children up to believe in God. If you say nay then you're a fascist.

No it's not fascism to rule out specific lesson space about religion to the more vulnerable pre seven year old young children in our schools, it wouldn't be right to keep presenting say unionism either, plus giving lessons about any one subject would tend in its self to lend gravitas to any subject presented in this manner, religion in this case.

I would be on your side if the population in general were being oppressed and prevented from practising their religion outside of school hours, now that could be seen as fascism and I would have no part of it.   

Children below the age of seven, on average, are at a particularly vulnerable age and I wouldn't want to see or hear about them having any isms or religions getting very much more than an occasional mention to this particular group.   

ippy

[ippy]

Secular Humanists are at perfect liberty to start schools or to form academy trusts. That many schools are church foundation says something about which bodies had most social concern in the past. That Secular Humanists are not founding schools but hoping for a free take over ostensibly to satisfy their beliefs now says something about their social concern today.

In any case. We live in a secular country. IF you are frustrated by progress in the Rout of religion have you considered that the person in the street considers your brand of secularism humanism unacceptable and somewhat swivel eyed.

I see you're doing misquotes now where you have said I want to rout religion, implying a complete rout from everywhere; where did I express that view?

You wrote:  "In any case. We live in a secular country. IF you are frustrated by progress in the Rout of religion have you considered that the person in the street considers your brand of secularism humanism unacceptable and somewhat swivel eyed".

I specifically referred to routing religion from schools and even then I was referring to the Pre seven year old children, the particularly vulnerable ones that are specifically targeted by the majority of religions or faiths, whichever description you may prefer.

Haven't you noticed Vlad, how the various religions do their very best to indoctrinate their followers in to making a point of indoctrinating the next lot, the next generation; thank goodness these methods only work on a percentage basis and now with so much knowledge at our fingertips, even these percentage games the religions play trying to indoctrinate new  recruits are loosing their grip, even that ploy is no longer as successful as it used to be.   

ippy

[ad_orientem]

No it's not fascism to rule out specific lesson space about religion to the more vulnerable pre seven year old young children in our schools, it wouldn't be right to keep presenting say unionism either, plus giving lessons about any one subject would tend in its self to lend gravitas to any subject presented in this manner, religion in this case.

I would be on your side if the population in general were being oppressed and prevented from practising their religion outside of school hours, now that could be seen as fascism and I would have no part of it.   

Children below the age of seven, on average, are at a particularly vulnerable age and I wouldn't want to see or hear about them having any isms or religions getting very much more than an occasional mention to this particular group.   

ippy

You never mentioned anything about schools. Anyway, if a parent wishes to send their children to a religious school it's nobody elses business but theirs.

[floo]

You never mentioned anything about schools. Anyway, if a parent wishes to send their children to a religious school it's nobody elses business but theirs.

Catholic schools don't exactly have the best of reputations. Sexual abuse has been rife in the past.

[Nearly Sane]

Catholic schools don't exactly have the best of reputations. Sexual abuse has been rife in the past.

Can you cite something that says sexual abuse in Catholic schools was worse than other schools?

[jeremyp]

Catholic schools don't exactly have the best of reputations. Sexual abuse has been rife in the past.

You're confusing Catholic schools and Catholic priests.

[floo]

You're confusing Catholic schools and Catholic priests.

No I am not, there has been a lot of abuse reported at Catholic schools too, especially the Irish ones!

[Brownie]

We are, I think, talking about Catholic Primary and Comprehensive schools in this country, floo.

[Nearly Sane]

No I am not, there has been a lot of abuse reported at Catholic schools too, especially the Irish ones!

and gave you compared them to other schools? What is your evidence that is specifically worse?