Governors Prespective

[Gordon]

I knoiw of several places of UK Higher and Further Education where posters for events run by the various Christian Unions/Groups both either defaced or torn down.  Then there have been university Student Unions who have refused existing Christian groups affiliated to them the use of campus rooms under their control - on the grounds that the groups are only open to members and the meetings only open to said members (a rule that pretty well all student groups also apply), whereas CU and other Christian meetings are often open to the public, should they wish to attend.  Then there have been Unions who have refused to allow a Christian Union/Group to affiliate in the first place.  In pretty well all such cases, the relevant University authorities havee refused to become involved, arguing that the issue was a 'student' issue.

I would also be very surprised if any Christian group would object to an pagan grouping in the university.  Perhaps you could provide us with a link to the story you originally gave.

You appear to have forgotten to provide the details, which is what was requested in the post you were replying to.

This just reads like another of your arguments by anecdote.

[Brownie]

That wasn't Hope's argument though, he was merely stating what he had observed, not suggesting any type of segregation in schools.

Indeed there is factionalism in some schools, not all by any means.  A lot depends on exactly where the school is and reflects the sections of the population from which the children come (families especially).

[ProfessorDavey]

That wasn't Hope's argument though, he was merely stating what he had observed, not suggesting any type of segregation in schools.

I'm not entirely sure what Hope's arguments are.

However he has made 2 assertions (unevidenced of course) - so it isn't unreasonable to think that he see's them as linked.

So his first assertion is that fractionalise is in 'bog standard comprehensives' and in singling this category of schools out, then presumably he believes it isn't seen in faith schools (I disagree of course, but that seems to be his assertion. Secondly that the demographics of faith schools are narrow, but it doesn't matter because kids will socialise outside that narrow 'faith' demographic outside school.

Putting those two together it isn't unreasonable to assume that he thinks that faith schools don't have factionalism because they act to segregate those factions - in other words you won't get the christian kids against the muslim kids because there aren't any muslim kids (or so few as to make it impossible for them to be seen as a group or faction) in the christian faith school. So in effect that we should prevent factionalism by segregating kids into different schools on the basis of which 'faction' they belong to.

Now I disagree with that view massively both on principle and also on practicalities.

Indeed there is factionalism in some schools, not all by any means.  A lot depends on exactly where the school is and reflects the sections of the population from which the children come (families especially).

Agreed - and that has nothing to do with whether the school is a faith or non faith school.

[Hope]

Several - which ones please.

. . . various Christian Unions/Groups - which ones please.

Which ones?

WHICH ONES!

[quote}

I would also be very surprised if any Christian group would object to an pagan grouping in the university.  Perhaps you could provide us with a link to the story you originally gave.



The link is my daughter and her friends experiences - observed by myself on some occasions.

Be surprised? You would because it would not fit in with your blinkered and biased view of the attitude of Christians to other groups!

One year (I can'tremember exactly which one - it was too long ago) some American evangelicals were invited by the Croydon churches to help them picket Witchfest. Half a dozen of them turned up to find that they were facing a queue of over a thousand Pagans and witches waiting in line for the doors to open,

This did not faze them and they gave it their all in condemnation of our beliefs and practices. Being November it was very cold and even these die-hard anti-witches were glad (shamefacedly) to accept the hot tea and coffee that was taken out to them by the organisers of Witchfest.

As you will appreciate, anecdotal evidence isn't accepted here, Owl.  Perhaps you can provide proper links to material that supports your claim.  Only then will I look to do the same for mine - and that won't be till after the weekend as I'm away till then.

[Hope]

So his first assertion is that fractionalise is in 'bog standard comprehensives' and in singling this category of schools out, then presumably he believes it isn't seen in faith schools (I disagree of course, but that seems to be his assertion. Secondly that the demographics of faith schools are narrow, but it doesn't matter because kids will socialise outside that narrow 'faith' demographic outside school.

An interesting analysis, PD, but also a false one.  My point was that over the years, I have taught in 'bog standard' ('ordinary or basic') state schools (in other words, schools that aren't filled with high-achievers or non-achievers).  Many have been multi-ethnic in make-up ( in fact two have had many more non-Caucasian pupils on role than Caucasian).  For all the schools' efforts to integrate the mix of nationalities and cultural backgrounds, that has often only really occurred at the level of the composition of the classes - rather than more deeply.  Rather than trying to make the contrast between state and faith-based schools that you seem to want me to be making, I was simply expressing the single point that an 'imposition' of cross-cultural thinking similar to that which is seen in schools - be that faith-based or not - often doesn't work.

Putting those two together it isn't unreasonable to assume that he thinks that faith schools don't have factionalism because they act to segregate those factions - in other words you won't get the christian kids against the muslim kids because there aren't any muslim kids (or so few as to make it impossible for them to be seen as a group or faction) in the christian faith school. So in effect that we should prevent factionalism by segregating kids into different schools on the basis of which 'faction' they belong to.

Thanks for putting words and ideas into my mouth that I have been trying to fight for the last 45-odd years.

Now I disagree with that view massively both on principle and also on practicalities.

Your passionate attempt to put those ideas into my mouth would seem to suggest otherwise, PD.

[ProfessorDavey]

My point was that over the years, I have taught in 'bog standard' ('ordinary or basic') state schools (in other words, schools that aren't filled with high-achievers or non-achievers).

I think you are being a touch disingenuous.

Your original post talked about 'bog-standard comprehensive schools with no ties to the local religious groups' (my emphasis). So you were very clearly restricting your criticism to non faith schools - if not why on earth would it be relevant to tell us that they didn't have ties to religious groups. And given the nature of this thread (and this is on the Christian Topic) then the discussion is necessarily linked to faith schools.

And previously you had asserted that it didn't matter if faith schools were very narrow in their demographics (race/religion) as kids socialised with all sorts of people outside school. By the way I don't think this is true in many cases.

So it isn't unreasonable to put together your various assertions in the manner I did.

Nonetheless, lets see whether you are able to agree with the following points:

1. That factionalism (racial/religious) does occur in some schools (but certainly not all) and is found in faith schools as well as non faith.

2. That there are plenty of schools with very mixed intakes (in terms of religion or lack thereof and race) where there are no problems with factionalism along those grounds.

3. That if there is a problem with factionalism the answer is not to 'segregate' those factions (religious groups/racial groups) into different schools.

[ProfessorDavey]

Rather than trying to make the contrast between state and faith-based schools ...

The faith schools we are talking about are state schools - again you seem to be unable to understand the distinctions.

[ProfessorDavey]

I was simply expressing the single point that an 'imposition' of cross-cultural thinking similar to that which is seen in schools - be that faith-based or not - often doesn't work.

And in many, many cases (including the schools I have extensive knowledge of which are all non faith community schools, i.e. 'bog standard' in your view, albeit now forced to academise) it works very well, thank you very much. And it isn't imposed - kids (particular at the youngest ages) see no cultural or religious distinctions - they simply see other kids and will get along (or not) regardless of race or religion. Stigmatising others on the basis of race/religion/sexuality etc is learned behaviour sadly.

I struggle to see how an overarching ethos in a school of fundamental respect and tolerance (and practicing what you preach) can be seen as 'imposing' anything.

[Hope]

The faith schools we are talking about are state schools - again you seem to be unable to understand the distinctions.

I do understand the difference - that was a mistake that I noticed having posted the post, but as I closed the browser before leaving home earlier.

[Hope]

I think you are being a touch disingenuous.

Your original post talked about 'bog-standard comprehensive schools with no ties to the local religious groups' (my emphasis). So you were very clearly restricting your criticism to non faith schools - if not why on earth would it be relevant to tell us that they didn't have ties to religious groups. And given the nature of this thread (and this is on the Christian Topic) then the discussion is necessarily linked to faith schools.

Sorry, PD, next time I won't try to use the same categorisations you use in such debates, as it seems you don't understand your own.  There are faith-based schools; there are 'church' state schools and there are 'secular' state schools.  I notice that no-one here seems to have used the 2nd of these three definitions in this thread.

And previously you had asserted that it didn't matter if faith schools were very narrow in their demographics (race/religion) as kids socialised with all sorts of people outside school. By the way I don't think this is true in many cases.

Again, I said no such thing.  Rather, I said that the mixing of cultures and races in a school, doesn't always work as smoothly and effectively as some would have us believe - or at least, not in my experience as a teacher.

So it isn't unreasonable to put together your various assertions in the manner I did.

Had I made those assertions in the first place, of course.

1. That factionalism (racial/religious) does occur in some schools (but certainly not all) and is found in faith schools as well as non faith.

2. That there are plenty of schools with very mixed intakes (in terms of religion or lack thereof and race) where there are no problems with factionalism along those grounds.

3. That if there is a problem with factionalism the answer is not to 'segregate' those factions (religious groups/racial groups) into different schools.

You have summed up what I have argued for over a number of months and threads - but possibly more succinctly.

[ProfessorDavey]

Sorry, PD, next time I won't try to use the same categorisations you use in such debates, as it seems you don't understand your own.  There are faith-based schools; there are 'church' state schools and there are 'secular' state schools.  I notice that no-one here seems to have used the 2nd of these three definitions in this thread.

I'm using standard terminology accepted throughout the country from the Department of Education onward.

We are of course only really talking about state schools here (or the correct term - maintained schools) - if that is he case I do not understand your distinction between 'faith-based schools' and 'church state schools' - they are one and the same - albeit the latter is a subset of the former as there are a tiny number of non christian faith schools.

The accepted term is faith school and this encompasses any state school (maintained school) which is defined as having a specific religious ethos, and in nearly all cases has formal involvement of a faith organisation in its running. In the past most of these were either 'voluntary aided' or voluntary controlled' depending on their specific governance arrangements. Recently, of course, many have become academies and indeed in due course it is likely that all will be required to. However they will remain faith schools.

Now I recognise you are from Wales, and I am talking about the situation in England - but aside from the academisation drive the situation is similar in each country.

See here:

https://www.gov.uk/types-of-school/overview

Note last updated today - so bang up to date. You will note that the terms I use are there - the terms you use, including  'faith-based schools', 'church state schools' and 'bog standard comprehensive' aren't mentioned at all in the official nomenclature of state school types.

[ProfessorDavey]

I do understand the difference - that was a mistake that I noticed having posted the post, but as I closed the browser before leaving home earlier.

Yet later you are still talking about:

'Faith-based schools' and 'church-state schools' - please explain how those are 2 distinct groups of state school.