Governors Prespective

[ippy]

I found this article included within the NSS's weekly Newsline:

http://www.secularism.org.uk/blog/2016/08/governors-perspective--beware-an-increasingly-assertive-religious-ethos-in-church-schools

I thought it might be of general interest and appropriately presented on the Christian Topic section.

ippy

[ProfessorDavey]

I found this article included within the NSS's weekly Newsline:

http://www.secularism.org.uk/blog/2016/08/governors-perspective--beware-an-increasingly-assertive-religious-ethos-in-church-schools

I thought it might be of general interest and appropriately presented on the Christian Topic section.

ippy

As I have indicated on many occasions I am against state funded faith schools.

But this is an even more urgent and extreme issue. Even if you still allow state funded faith schools, surely parents must have a reasonable choice not to send their kids to a faith school. If there is just one school in a village and it is a faith school (as is often the case for historical reasons) then parents do not have that choice, as bussing their kids - usually this is primary school age - to another town, perhaps miles away isn't a reasonable option.

Where there is only one school in an area, and therefore no choice for parents, that school must be non faith.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I confess it slightly troubles me that with all the problems in secular society and education in particular there is a monomaniacal interest in basing a more perfect society about circumscribing particular people's efforts.

In secular Britain people Keep returning the party at prayer but obviously some of those want to get rid of any social involvement in social activity.

How is the atheist university doing? A model of a free market educational establishment no doubt.

[Harrowby Hall]

What might an "atheist" university be?

Most universities in the UK are secular institutions anyway. They do not formally support a religious viewpoint but may allow representatives of various faiths to act as unsupported chaplains to those wishing to avail themselves of their services - but have no official status and no premises on campus.

And where there is a Department of Religious Studies there will be no proselytising members of staff - there may even be atheist lecturers in the department.

I worked at a new university which had developed from a CofE teacher training college. There were bishops on the governing body, but there was no place of worship anywhere in the university premises. And the majority of students had no conception of the university's ecclesiastical connection.

[Hope]

What might an "atheist" university be?

If I understand the phrase correctly, its the university that Dawkins proposed setting up some years ago.  Don't think it ever got off the ground.

[ippy]

As I have indicated on many occasions I am against state funded faith schools.

But this is an even more urgent and extreme issue. Even if you still allow state funded faith schools, surely parents must have a reasonable choice not to send their kids to a faith school. If there is just one school in a village and it is a faith school (as is often the case for historical reasons) then parents do not have that choice, as bussing their kids - usually this is primary school age - to another town, perhaps miles away isn't a reasonable option.

Where there is only one school in an area, and therefore no choice for parents, that school must be non faith.

This contention that faith schools take a percentage of children from other faiths or none isn't good enough; all schools should be non-faith as a matter of course anyway, so that we all mix from the youngest of ages.

ippy

[Walt Zingmatilder]

This contention that faith schools take a percentage of children from other faiths or none isn't good enough; all schools should be non-faith as a matter of course anyway, so that we all mix from the youngest of ages.

ippy

What about the children of the rich I doubt you are suggesting the end of private education and therefore strike me as specially pleading your peculiar hobbyhorse.

Surely C of E schools get the thumbs up from the majority of agnostic parents, don't they.

[Brownie]

You're right there Vlad, as do Catholic state schools.  I never cease to be amazed at the contortions some parents perform in order to secure a place for their child at one of these schools.   In fairness, the schools don't ram home religion in the way they did in days gone by, that time has passed - but seriously, are the state faith schools any better on the whole than non-faith schools?

Private faith schools are a different matter, the Catholic and Anglican ones have always taken a high proportion of children from other faiths, they are more concerned with academic results and in a position to pick and choose whom they will let in.  Jewish and Islamic private schools stick to their own.

[Hope]

This contention that faith schools take a percentage of children from other faiths or none isn't good enough; ...

OK, ippy, why is it a 'contention'? 

... all schools should be non-faith as a matter of course anyway, so that we all mix from the youngest of ages.

I can think of several young people who socialize more with other faiths and cultures outside of school than they ever do in school, so I'm not sure that your argument is watertight, ippy.

[ippy]

OK, ippy, why is it a 'contention'? 
I can think of several young people who socialize more with other faiths and cultures outside of school than they ever do in school, so I'm not sure that your argument is watertight, ippy.

Contention as per the O E U shorter version 'Contention'; ever heard of sarcasm Hope?

I'm pleased to hear that: "young people who socialize more with other faiths and cultures outside of school than they ever do in school", it must be even better mixing at school in addition to after school.

I don't suppose these primitive regressive beliefs will be doing any kind of quick disappearing act in the near future , so in the mean time all we can do is to try and loosen their grip on their most coveted recruiting ground which fortunately seems to be happening here in the U K and in lots of the other more enlightened countries too. 

We're having a modest success with bringing subsidised, free, bussing to an end, for children that have religious parents wanting their children to attend faith schools, the secularists are not going to stop nibbling away at religious privileges Hope.

ippy


 

[Brownie]

Ippy, I've nothing to add here, said what I think in my previous post, however both floo and I have asked you a question on the "Zionist" thread  , so please hop over when you have the time.

[Hope]

Contention as per the O E U shorter version 'Contention'; ever heard of sarcasm Hope?

The word has two, related meanings, ippy - a 'heated disagreement' and 'an assertion, especially one maintained in argument': i just wondere3d which meaning you were using.

I'm pleased to hear that: "young people who socialize more with other faiths and cultures outside of school than they ever do in school", it must be even better mixing at school in addition to after school.

The problem is that when one is within a large setting, such as a school, children will often associate with those who are like them - so that my experience is that the Pakistanis won't mix with the Indians or the Afro-Caribbean and few of any of those will mix with the indigenous kids.  Obviously, there will be some cross-over, especially in the case of sporting and other team activities, but my experience is also that the peer-pressure doesn't exist to the same extent outside of school.

I don't suppose these primitive regressive beliefs will be doing any kind of quick disappearing act in the near future , so in the mean time all we can do is to try and loosen their grip on their most coveted recruiting ground which fortunately seems to be happening here in the U K and in lots of the other more enlightened countries too. 

I'm not sure that 'primitive regressive' are appropriate adjectives for a set of beliefs that still have a lot to say to modern society, ippy - or are you suggesting that society is also 'primitive' and 'regressive'?

We're having a modest success with bringing subsidised, free, bussing to an end, for children that have religious parents wanting their children to attend faith schools, the secularists are not going to stop nibbling away at religious privileges Hope.

ippy

Have to say that I've lived in a number of Local Authority areas, and have to say that the only bussing I've known has been to local state-owned and state-run secondary schools. 

[Brownie]

There was me thinking he meant clearing tables in the school cafeteria, without pay.  Maybe in Lent?

[jeremyp]

We're having a modest success with bringing subsidised, free, bussing to an end, for children that have religious parents wanting their children to attend faith schools, the secularists are not going to stop nibbling away at religious privileges Hope.

Wouldn't it be more positive to campaign for children that have non-religious parents to get the same rights as the ones with religious parents i.e. everybody gets a free bus to school?

[ProfessorDavey]

Surely C of E schools get the thumbs up from the majority of agnostic parents, don't they.

Evidence please - I think that's pretty unlikely - faith school (of which the majority are CofE) are usually given a thumbs down by about two thirds of parents when proper research studies the issue. And, of course, that one thirds in favour is likely to be heavily skewed towards adherents of the religions that run those faith schools then the likelihood that a majority of agnostic parents support CofE faith schools seems implausible.

[ProfessorDavey]

I can think of several young people who socialize more with other faiths and cultures outside of school than they ever do in school, so I'm not sure that your argument is watertight, ippy.

Sure there will be kids you socialise outside of schools in a broader manner than in school. But that isn't an argument for what is effectively 'social engineering' creating structures that act to divide kids into various religions and the rest.

But it is pretty difficult to argue against Ippy's basic point.

So to use an example - my kids go to a state non faith school - the intake largely matches the demographics of the local area, so the people they learn with are reflective of that community in all sorts of manners, including religion. So they know and socialise with loads of kids who are from non religious backgrounds, plus others who are active CofE, RCC (plus other christian denominations) and also muslim, sikh etc etc.

My sister in laws kids attend a catholic school with the intake overwhelmingly from the catholic 'community' of a large city. So even though perhaps only 10% of that city are catholic, perhaps 90% of the kids they socialise with at school are. Their school is largely devoid of other faiths, and certainly their impression (from what they see at school - and actually at home too) is that the world is largely catholic, with a scattering of non catholics.

It is pretty clear which schooling provides a broader opportunity to socialise, interact and learn about kids from all faiths and none - plus also to understand the proportions of those people within the broader community.

[Owlswing]

What might an "atheist" university be?

Most universities in the UK are secular institutions anyway. They do not formally support a religious viewpoint but may allow representatives of various faiths to act as unsupported chaplains to those wishing to avail themselves of their services - but have no official status and no premises on campus.

And where there is a Department of Religious Studies there will be no proselytising members of staff - there may even be atheist lecturers in the department.

I worked at a new university which had developed from a CofE teacher training college. There were bishops on the governing body, but there was no place of worship anywhere in the university premises. And the majority of students had no conception of the university's ecclesiastical connection.

When my daughter and a few friends started a Pagan Society at her University it took a threat from the University authorities (backed by the local court) of disbandment and legal action to stop the Catholic and the Christian Societies from destroying anything posted on the notice boards by the Pagan Society or actively harrassing anyone trying to attend Pagan meetings by any possible means including physical and verbal assaults.

It doesn't have to be a 'faith' school in order for it to house religious troglodites.

[Hope]

When my daughter and a few friends started a Pagan Society at her University it took a threat from the University authorities (backed by the local court) of disbandment and legal action to stop the Catholic and the Christian Societies from destroying anything posted on the notice boards by the Pagan Society or actively harrassing anyone trying to attend Pagan meetings by any possible means including physical and verbal assaults.

It doesn't have to be a 'faith' school in order for it to house religious troglodites.

Oddly enough, Owlswing, when anything similar is aimed at Christian Unions/Societies, no university even bats an eyelid.  Welcome to the 'persecuted' minority.

[Nearly Sane]

Oddly enough, Owlswing, when anything similar is aimed at Christian Unions/Societies, no university even bats an eyelid.  Welcome to the 'persecuted' minority.

can you show citations that this is always the case and no university does anything?

[Owlswing]

Oddly enough, Owlswing, when anything similar is aimed at Christian Unions/Societies, no university even bats an eyelid.  Welcome to the 'persecuted' minority.
[/quot


Provide specific cases please.

[Hope]

Provide specific cases please.

I knoiw of several places of UK Higher and Further Education where posters for events run by the various Christian Unions/Groups both either defaced or torn down.  Then there have been university Student Unions who have refused existing Christian groups affiliated to them the use of campus rooms under their control - on the grounds that the groups are only open to members and the meetings only open to said members (a rule that pretty well all student groups also apply), whereas CU and other Christian meetings are often open to the public, should they wish to attend.  Then there have been Unions who have refused to allow a Christian Union/Group to affiliate in the first place.  In pretty well all such cases, the relevant University authorities havee refused to become involved, arguing that the issue was a 'student' issue.

I would also be very surprised if any Christian group would object to an pagan grouping in the university.  Perhaps you could provide us with a link to the story you originally gave.

[Hope]

It is pretty clear which schooling provides a broader opportunity to socialise, interact and learn about kids from all faiths and none - plus also to understand the proportions of those people within the broader community.

I have taught at a number of bog-standard comprehensive schools with no ties to the local religious groups, and been saddened by the aversion shown by both indigenous and minority ethnic groups towards each other within the student body.  I probably learnt more about 'other religions and cultures' by mixing with them outside of school than ever I saw being learnt in school.

[Owlswing]

I knoiw of several places of UK Higher and Further Education where posters for events run by the various Christian Unions/Groups both either defaced or torn down.

Several - which ones please.

. . . various Christian Unions/Groups - which ones please.

Then there have been university Student Unions who have refused existing Christian groups affiliated to them the use of campus rooms under their control

Which ones?

Then there have been Unions who have refused to allow a Christian Union/Group to affiliate in the first place.

WHICH ONES!

[quote}

I would also be very surprised if any Christian group would object to an pagan grouping in the university.  Perhaps you could provide us with a link to the story you originally gave.

[/quote]

The link is my daughter and her friends experiences - observed by myself on some occasions.

Be surprised? You would because it would not fit in with your blinkered and biased view of the attitude of Christians to other groups!

One year (I can'tremember exactly which one - it was too long ago) some American evangelicals were invited by the Croydon churches to help them picket Witchfest. Half a dozen of them turned up to find that they were facing a queue of over a thousand Pagans and witches waiting in line for the doors to open,

This did not faze them and they gave it their all in condemnation of our beliefs and practices. Being November it was very cold and even these die-hard anti-witches were glad (shamefacedly) to accept the hot tea and coffee that was taken out to them by the organisers of Witchfest.

[Brownie]

I doubt Hope has even heard of Witchfest.  I had to look it up.  Not something that happens very often.

It's funny really that American evangelicals were called in to picket, a pretty pointless exercise I would have thought but shows how indifferent the British are that they need to import extremists from another country to make a point.

[ProfessorDavey]

I have taught at a number of bog-standard comprehensive schools with no ties to the local religious groups, and been saddened by the aversion shown by both indigenous and minority ethnic groups towards each other within the student body.  I probably learnt more about 'other religions and cultures' by mixing with them outside of school than ever I saw being learnt in school.

Your use of the term 'bog standard comprehensive' demonstrates your prejudice on the matter. And yes there is factionalism in many schools, and that isn't restricted to just non faith schools by any means.

But if your argument is that if we put different religious/racial groups in one school there may be tensions so the best approach is to separate them out into separate schools so they don't interact - well that isn't the answer is it. The answer is of course to engender an ethos of respect and tolerance - which is the case in all the non faith schools I have had significant contact with (as parent and governor, plus my wife as teacher/deputy head) - but you cannot do that if the very nature of the school ethos means to place one religious group (and often by inference some racial groups) ahead of others.  If your school says 'christian' on the door then if you aren't christian you are instantly on the back foot.