Author Topic: Evangelising young children  (Read 32568 times)

ippy

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Evangelising young children
« on: August 20, 2016, 11:47:05 AM »
They can't keep their hands off of our children and it looks like upping the anti to me; I suppose it's in line with their exponentially disastrous continuing loss of support every year:   

http://www.secularism.org.uk/news/2016/02/church-stresses-urgent-need-to-focus-evangelism-on-children-young-people-and-their-parents

ippy

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Evangelising young children
« Reply #1 on: August 20, 2016, 12:51:19 PM »
They can't keep their hands off of our children and it looks like upping the anti to me; I suppose it's in line with their exponentially disastrous continuing loss of support every year:   

http://www.secularism.org.uk/news/2016/02/church-stresses-urgent-need-to-focus-evangelism-on-children-young-people-and-their-parents

ippy
As far as I'm aware this post is pure paranoia since you have a choice and this is a secular society

Harrowby Hall

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Re: Evangelising young children
« Reply #2 on: August 20, 2016, 01:59:47 PM »
Children do not have a choice.
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Maeght

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Re: Evangelising young children
« Reply #3 on: August 20, 2016, 02:04:31 PM »
Children do not have a choice.

I was gonna say that.

SusanDoris

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Re: Evangelising young children
« Reply #4 on: August 20, 2016, 02:24:52 PM »
Ippy


Thank you for posting the link.


I'd like to see the, for example, AofC questioned in a Supreme Court of some kindwhere he must tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, conceding only a minuscule percentage to the just about impossibility of a god appearing,  and asked to provide one verifiable fact about the God he believes exists. Next in line, the Pope.

And then he could be commanded to state why he jjustifies teaching falsehoods to children as facts, instead of teaching how beliefs have been a part of history..


Belated alteration: I think 'facts' should be 'truths', even though the latter allows too much wriggle room.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2016, 01:49:22 PM by SusanDoris »
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jeremyp

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Re: Evangelising young children
« Reply #5 on: August 20, 2016, 02:38:46 PM »
As far as I'm aware this post is pure paranoia since you have a choice and this is a secular society
Just because you are paranoid, doesn't mean they are not out to get you (or your children in this instance).
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ippy

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Re: Evangelising young children
« Reply #6 on: August 20, 2016, 02:43:24 PM »
Ippy


Thank you for posting the link.


I'd like to see the, for example, AofC questioned in a Supreme Court of some kindwhere he must tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, conceding only a minuscule percentage to the just about impossibility of a god appearing,  and asked to provide one verifiable fact about the God he believes exists. Next in line, the Pope.

And then he could be commanded to state why he jjustifies teaching falsehoods to children as facts, instead of teaching how beliefs have been a part of history..

Thank you SD, it's this aspect of religions that really worries and bothers me the most, they can't keep their hands off of our young children.

It's necessary to break this circle of indoctrinating the children to indoctrinate their children to then indoctrinate their children and on and on; there's no easy answer.

That's the trouble, those that are successfully indoctrinated aren't even aware that they have been successfully indoctrinated.

There has to be a way of freeing future generations from these unhelpful false dogmas, it's probably secularism that has the best chance of success in this area.

ippy
« Last Edit: August 20, 2016, 09:46:11 PM by ippy »

Hope

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Re: Evangelising young children
« Reply #7 on: August 20, 2016, 04:46:56 PM »
They can't keep their hands off of our children and it looks like upping the anti to me; I suppose it's in line with their exponentially disastrous continuing loss of support every year:   

http://www.secularism.org.uk/news/2016/02/church-stresses-urgent-need-to-focus-evangelism-on-children-young-people-and-their-parents

ippy
No they can't, can they, ippy. It happens in science lessons at school, in children's and many other types of TV programme, etc.  Everything is all about the primacy of evolution.
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Hope

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Re: Evangelising young children
« Reply #8 on: August 20, 2016, 04:50:39 PM »
I'd like to see the, for example, AofC questioned in a Supreme Court of some kindwhere he must tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, conceding only a minuscule percentage to the just about impossibility of a god appearing,  and asked to provide one verifiable fact about the God he believes exists. Next in line, the Pope.

And then he could be commanded to state why he jjustifies teaching falsehoods to children as facts, instead of teaching how beliefs have been a part of history..
Susan, as I've stated many times before, the evidence against 'the AofC' is about as strong as that in his favour.  None of those who believe in the primacy of science, be that here or elsewhere, has managed to provide any evidence that is independent of science, and therefore not biased to prove your belief.
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Maeght

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Re: Evangelising young children
« Reply #9 on: August 20, 2016, 04:51:03 PM »
No they can't, can they, ippy. It happens in science lessons at school, in children's and many other types of TV programme, etc.  Everything is all about the primacy of evolution.

The difference is that evolution isn't a personal belief.

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Re: Evangelising young children
« Reply #10 on: August 20, 2016, 05:01:55 PM »
No they can't, can they, ippy. It happens in science lessons at school, in children's and many other types of TV programme, etc.  Everything is all about the primacy of evolution.

Evolution isn't a fantasy, it has a lot of evidence to support it, unlike religion.

Hope

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Re: Evangelising young children
« Reply #11 on: August 20, 2016, 05:06:51 PM »
The difference is that evolution isn't a personal belief.
But nor is it an alternative to creation, Maeght, as Professor Denis Alexander writes in his book - 'Creation or Evolution: Do we have to choose?'.

The ultimate question isn't so much 'how' humanity came to exist, but 'why'.  Some here would argue that that second element is irrelevant; others wouldn't.  Unfortunately, it is never addressed in any way by the likes of Attenborough or Cox.  For them, the 'how' aspect of evolution is paramount.  That is why I responded to ippy's OP in the way I did - people are being indoctrinated into ignoring the big questions.
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Hope

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Re: Evangelising young children
« Reply #12 on: August 20, 2016, 05:08:45 PM »
Evolution isn't a fantasy, it has a lot of evidence to support it, unlike religion.
Floo, I am in no way suggesting that it is a fantasy, just that evolution only addresses one aspect of reality.  See my response to Maeght.
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floo

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Re: Evangelising young children
« Reply #13 on: August 20, 2016, 05:10:22 PM »
If we ever discover the exact cause of how the universe came into being, I bet it is nothing to do with the god featured in the Bible.

Gordon

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Re: Evangelising young children
« Reply #14 on: August 20, 2016, 05:47:15 PM »
None of those who believe in the primacy of science, be that here or elsewhere, has managed to provide any evidence that is independent of science, and therefore not biased to prove your belief.

Utter twaddle, as is usual from you these days: you seem to have forgotten we are all waiting for you to produce 'evidence that is independent of science'.

SusanDoris

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Re: Evangelising young children
« Reply #15 on: August 20, 2016, 05:57:57 PM »
No they can't, can they, ippy. It happens in science lessons at school, in children's and many other types of TV programme, etc.  Everything is all about the primacy of evolution.
Susan, as I've stated many times before, the evidence against 'the AofC' is about as strong as that in his favour.  None of those who believe in the primacy of science, be that here or elsewhere, has managed to provide any evidence that is independent of science, and therefore not biased to prove your belief.

You live in a democracy with the freedom to make NPF statements etc, but the complacency  I see when, occasionally, I steel myself to read your posts is quite frightening really.



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Gordon

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Re: Evangelising young children
« Reply #16 on: August 20, 2016, 05:59:03 PM »
The ultimate question isn't so much 'how' humanity came to exist, but 'why'.  Some here would argue that that second element is irrelevant; others wouldn't.

Then you need to demonstrate that in this context 'why' is a valid question without recourse to your favourite fallacies.

Quote
Unfortunately, it is never addressed in any way by the likes of Attenborough or Cox.  For them, the 'how' aspect of evolution is paramount.

They are scientists presenting science programmes for crying out loud.

Quote
That is why I responded to ippy's OP in the way I did - people are being indoctrinated into ignoring the big questions.

They are being educated to think sceptically: this is a good thing, albeit bad news for organised religion here in the UK.

Maeght

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Re: Evangelising young children
« Reply #17 on: August 20, 2016, 06:23:38 PM »
But nor is it an alternative to creation, Maeght,

No, partly since evolution says nothing about how life started on this planet, only about how existing life has changed.

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as Professor Denis Alexander writes in his book - 'Creation or Evolution: Do we have to choose?'.

And his answer is? I'm not familiar with this book.

Creation by God is a personal belief and should be taught as such - evolution isn't, it is a scientific theory which is very, very well supported and should be taught as such.

Quote
The ultimate question isn't so much 'how' humanity came to exist, but 'why'.  Some here would argue that that second element is irrelevant; others wouldn't.  Unfortunately, it is never addressed in any way by the likes of Attenborough or Cox.  For them, the 'how' aspect of evolution is paramount.

Because that is what evolution is about. 'Why' ishould be covered by philosophy and religion and is a matter of personal belief, not science.

Quote
That is why I responded to ippy's OP in the way I did - people are being indoctrinated into ignoring the big questions.

I don't think that is true at all. The 'big question' as you call it (I wouldn't agree with that as I think there is no why as in a purpose so its not a big question at all for me) is covered elsewhere and is just not part of the scientific material which is being taught.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Evangelising young children
« Reply #18 on: August 20, 2016, 07:45:38 PM »
Hope,

Quote
But nor is it an alternative to creation, Maeght, as Professor Denis Alexander writes in his book - 'Creation or Evolution: Do we have to choose?'.

Seems like an odd title. Why not, say, "Architecture or Morris Dancing: Do we have to choose?"

Evolution has nothing to do with "creation" (whatever that means). It's actually to do with speciation after something exists. 

Quote
The ultimate question isn't so much 'how' humanity came to exist, but 'why'.

No, it's not even a question at all if you mean "why" in its purposive sense. For that to be a meaningful question, you'd need to demonstrate first a sentient being to decide on the why.

Quote
Some here would argue that that second element is irrelevant; others wouldn't.

No, it's not even irrelevant. It's just not a coherent question at all.

Quote
Unfortunately, it is never addressed in any way by the likes of Attenborough or Cox.

Presumably because the question is meaningless.

Quote
For them, the 'how' aspect of evolution is paramount.

No, it's not "paramount" at all - it's just the only show in town if you want a cogent, well-evidenced theory for speciation that has predictive power and that - so far at least - hasn't been falsified.

Quote
That is why I responded to ippy's OP in the way I did - people are being indoctrinated into ignoring the big questions.

Spectacular nonsense. There's no "indoctrination" because the evidence speaks for itself, and there's no "big question" when the question you attempt is just white noise. 

Apart from all that though...

Oh, I'll say doodle-oo now I think because I have every confidence that you'll be true to form and just disappear for a bit now your position has been falsified.
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Evangelising young children
« Reply #19 on: August 20, 2016, 08:53:42 PM »
Hillside

For you creation is whatever SeanCarroll says it is.

Prof Davey surprised me by confusing the question "Why is there anything anyway?." With " why am I here?" And then counters on about evolution which as you say is unconnected.

By the way, Why is there something........and not nothing?

Leonard James

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Re: Evangelising young children
« Reply #20 on: August 21, 2016, 08:01:59 AM »
Hillside

By the way, Why is there something........and not nothing?

Neither you nor anybody else know the answer to that.

torridon

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Re: Evangelising young children
« Reply #21 on: August 21, 2016, 08:34:48 AM »

By the way, Why is there something........and not nothing?

Why would there be a God, and not no God ?

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Evangelising young children
« Reply #22 on: August 21, 2016, 08:38:26 AM »
Why would there be a God, and not no God ?
A good question.

Why then is my original question a bad one?

Alien

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Re: Evangelising young children
« Reply #23 on: August 21, 2016, 08:57:18 AM »
Thank you SD, it's this aspect of religions that really worries and bothers me the most, they can't keep their hands off of our young children.

It's necessary to break this circle of indoctrinating the children to indoctrinate their children to then indoctrinate their children and on and on; there's no easy answer.

That's the trouble, those that are successfully indoctrinated aren't even aware that they have been successfully indoctrinated.

There has to be a way of freeing future generations from these unhelpful false dogmas, it's probably secularism that has the best chance of success in this area.

ippy
Perhaps you were thinking of this, ippy.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/5674934/Richard-Dawkins-launches-childrens-summer-camp-for-atheists.html
Apparently 99.9975% atheist because I believe in one out of 4000 believed in (an atheist on Facebook). Yes, check the maths as well.

Hope

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Re: Evangelising young children
« Reply #24 on: August 21, 2016, 09:20:45 AM »
Utter twaddle, as is usual from you these days: you seem to have forgotten we are all waiting for you to produce 'evidence that is independent of science'.
Gordon, you have had it presented by a variety of people over the years -including by a few non-believers.  You have chosen to either disbelieve it or ignore it. That is your prerogative, but saying that you are "waiting for ...  to produce ..." such evidence is a downright lie.  After all, your big arguement against most of it is that it IS independent of science - a condition that doesn't seem to exist in your view.
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