Author Topic: Evangelising young children  (Read 32653 times)

ippy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12679
Re: Evangelising young children
« Reply #75 on: August 21, 2016, 05:20:07 PM »
except you're the one making the claim about what happened at the summer school, so asking Hope  for proof against that is simply NPF, just as Hope does so frequently

Were I making a direct claim about RD's school you may have had a point, I was referring to RD's past record and added a proviso, allowing for the possibility that I may have missed something; all without tripping over myself with unnecessary overuse of language.

ippy   

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64304
Re: Evangelising young children
« Reply #76 on: August 21, 2016, 05:25:39 PM »
Were I making a direct claim about RD's school you may have had a point, I was referring to RD's past record and added a proviso, allowing for the possibility that I may have missed something; all without tripping over myself with unnecessary overuse of language.

ippy


To quote you, claim in bold. Perhaps you should try accurate language next time.




'Looks and sounds about right to me, I'm sure it's not perfect but there's no indoctrination involved, which of course, has to be better than piling on the usual load of old religious tripe.'






ippy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12679
Re: Evangelising young children
« Reply #77 on: August 21, 2016, 05:46:15 PM »

To quote you, claim in bold. Perhaps you should try accurate language next time.




'Looks and sounds about right to me, I'm sure it's not perfect but there's no indoctrination involved, which of course, has to be better than piling on the usual load of old religious tripe.'

Post 62 of mine it looks like you may have missed it N S: If teaching how to work out things for one's self = indoctrination, you may have something Hope.

ippy

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64304
Re: Evangelising young children
« Reply #78 on: August 21, 2016, 05:47:56 PM »
Post 62 of mine it looks like you may have missed it N S: If teaching how to work out things for one's self = indoctrination, you may have something Hope.

ippy
And? This is just you repeating the claim you denied making. And then resorted to the NPF.

ippy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12679
Re: Evangelising young children
« Reply #79 on: August 21, 2016, 06:01:03 PM »
And? This is just you repeating the claim you denied making. And then resorted to the NPF.

If that's how you wish to interpret my posts N S; I've left my posts open to challenge unlike Hope's.

ippy




Maeght

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5679
Re: Evangelising young children
« Reply #80 on: August 21, 2016, 06:03:16 PM »
What proof do you have that 'Creation by God is a personal belief' and not a true statement in the same way as evolution is?

Evolution is a scientific theory with a vast amont of supporting material evidence, hence is not an equivalent to the belief in creation by God. If evidence was found to falsify evolution by natural selection then the theory would be invalidated. There is no material evidence for creation by God and is clearly to me a matter of personal belief - I don't really understand why you don't think it is, can you explain why?

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64304
Re: Evangelising young children
« Reply #81 on: August 21, 2016, 06:15:23 PM »
If that's how you wish to interpret my posts N S; I've left my posts open to challenge unlike Hope's.

ippy
You made a claim, were challenged on it, resorted to the NPF, and denied making the claim. I am just pointing out what you have done.

ippy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12679
Re: Evangelising young children
« Reply #82 on: August 21, 2016, 07:04:11 PM »
You made a claim, were challenged on it, resorted to the NPF, and denied making the claim. I am just pointing out what you have done.

If that's how you see things N S, fine, we just differ and that's fine too.

ippy   

Maeght

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5679
Re: Evangelising young children
« Reply #83 on: August 21, 2016, 08:42:55 PM »
Even the Big Bang Theory requires an initiatory influence of some sort.

That it was God is a personal belief.

Quote
For me philosophy is just as important for human understanding as 'natural, physical science'.

As important for understanding human thinking perhaps but not the material world.

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64304
Re: Evangelising young children
« Reply #84 on: August 21, 2016, 09:12:18 PM »
That it was God is a personal belief.

As important for understanding human thinking perhaps but not the material world.
hmmm, how does an understanding of the material world not start from a philosophic position?

Hope

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 25569
    • Tools With A Mission
Re: Evangelising young children
« Reply #85 on: August 21, 2016, 09:48:33 PM »
R D's well known intention is to be true to the facts as we understand them today, I've not heard anything that make me think he would have any reason to go back on his words; perhaps you've heard something that I haven't?

ippy
Well, having heard several of his recorded 'debates', I'd question the "well known intention ... to be true to the facts as we understand them today" claim.  In just about every debate I've heard he has generalised about Christianity and religious faith in general in seriously questionable ways.  Furthermore, he has made claims about the primcy of scientific thought that have had absolutely no supporting evidence alongside them.
Are your, or your friends'/relatives', garages, lofts or sheds full of unused DIY gear, sewing/knitting machines or fabric and haberdashery stuff?

Lists of what is needed and a search engine to find your nearest collector (scroll to bottom for latter) are here:  http://www.twam.uk/donate-tools

Hope

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 25569
    • Tools With A Mission
Re: Evangelising young children
« Reply #86 on: August 21, 2016, 10:04:28 PM »
Hope,

Oh dear. The comparison was between a naturalistic answer (the lift) and a non-naturalistic one (the window). Just substituting the latter for a naturalistic alternative misses the point entirely.
Yet jumping out of a window is no less naturalistic than using a lift - possibly more so in the case of a fire when the lift is not usable, or if from the 2nd floor when it'll be quicker than using the lift.  I'm afraid that your use of the natuarlistic/non-naturalistic dichotomy doesn't work here.

Quote
But as so often your belief here is flat wrong. The explanation of the NPF is perfectly straightforward - and "solid". Why you can't grasp it is a matter for you, not for others.
Whereas the instant falling back on 'NFP' as some here like to use as their argument suggests a shallowness of argument.

Quote
Halle-flippin'-llujah!
I'm glad you acknowledge your faulty reasoning.

Quote
NOOOOOOOOOO! You haven't understood it at all. Dear god but you're obtuse. It's a point in logic regardless of the examples that populate it.
A logic which, of course, relies on a purely naturalistic understanding of existence. 

Quote
Not being able to falsify something says nothing whatsoever to whether that thing is true.
But nor does it say anything about that thing being false.  As I've pointed out on numerous occasions before, reality has a vast number of elements and different levels; your reliance on the naturalisic alone ignores many of those levels and elements.

Quote
Orbiting teapots are a daft idea too - does that invalidate the force of Russell's analogy do you think?
You're the one who keeps introducing such ideas; so its for you to answer your own questions.

Quote
Whether true or epistemically useful or not, THAT HAS NOTHING WHATEVER TO DO WITH THE NPF.
You're the one with the NPF hang-ups; you need to deal with those yourself.  I'm dealing in far broader terms.
Are your, or your friends'/relatives', garages, lofts or sheds full of unused DIY gear, sewing/knitting machines or fabric and haberdashery stuff?

Lists of what is needed and a search engine to find your nearest collector (scroll to bottom for latter) are here:  http://www.twam.uk/donate-tools

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64304
Re: Evangelising young children
« Reply #87 on: August 21, 2016, 10:26:41 PM »
This non naturalistic understanding, Hope? Got any method yet? Or are you going you run away on it again? Or say the god ate your homework! Or that you listed it but you have forgotten all about what it was!
« Last Edit: August 21, 2016, 10:31:48 PM by Nearly Sane »

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64304
Re: Evangelising young children
« Reply #88 on: August 21, 2016, 10:30:40 PM »
Well, having heard several of his recorded 'debates', I'd question the "well known intention ... to be true to the facts as we understand them today" claim.  In just about every debate I've heard he has generalised about Christianity and religious faith in general in seriously questionable ways.  Furthermore, he has made claims about the primcy of scientific thought that have had absolutely no supporting evidence alongside them.
As opposed to to your claims about non naturalistic evidence which despite you being asked for a methodology to judge such evidence, you have never provided? Care to now? Or just make a vacuous reference to it have being provided before?

Étienne d'Angleterre

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 757
Re: Evangelising young children
« Reply #89 on: August 22, 2016, 07:53:52 AM »
  As I've pointed out on numerous occasions before, reality has a vast number of elements and different levels; your reliance on the naturalisic alone ignores many of those levels and elements.

You have certainly claimed this but you always run away from the thread before explaining how you know these things to be non naturalistic. In case you have forgotten this is where we were up to.

http://www.religionethics.co.uk/index.php?topic=12376.msg628794#msg628794

You have several posts on that thread awaiting answers.

Gordon

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 18265
Re: Evangelising young children
« Reply #90 on: August 22, 2016, 07:58:05 AM »
As I've pointed out on numerous occasions before, reality has a vast number of elements and different levels; your reliance on the naturalisic alone ignores many of those levels and elements.

Yet you have consistently failed to specify what you claim to have pointed out.

Since, to follow your line of thought, you say reality has 'elements' and 'different levels' that are non-naturalistic this suggests two aspects of the non-natural that you've been able to categorise  - so perhaps you'll be good enough to provide two lists, one being the 'elements' and the other the 'levels', along with the method used to do the categorisation: this should be a doddle since, as you say, you've pointed this out on 'numerous occasions'.

Quote
You're the one with the NPF hang-ups; you need to deal with those yourself.  I'm dealing in far broader terms.

No: you are the one with NPF issues, in that you seem unable to recognise your continued use of this fallacy when it has been pointed out to you in relation to your own posts. You may think you are 'dealing in far broader terms': but you only think that, since you haven't as yet set out what these 'terms' are without using various forms of fallacious reasoning.
 
« Last Edit: August 22, 2016, 11:18:43 AM by Gordon »

ippy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12679
Re: Evangelising young children
« Reply #91 on: August 22, 2016, 07:58:31 AM »
Well, having heard several of his recorded 'debates', I'd question the "well known intention ... to be true to the facts as we understand them today" claim.  In just about every debate I've heard he has generalised about Christianity and religious faith in general in seriously questionable ways.  Furthermore, he has made claims about the primcy of scientific thought that have had absolutely no supporting evidence alongside them.

What claims has RD made about religion that are questionable?

He's more or less put religion in the bag sewn it up and chucked it in the river time and time again and since you mention it why wouldn't evidence based scientific claims have primacy over any superstition based revelation?

Again I can only assume RD in common with any other non-religious person, in general we're not inclined to think of ourselves as aunicornists or a afairyists either; NPF?

Now "Star Trek".

ippy




Maeght

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5679
Re: Evangelising young children
« Reply #92 on: August 22, 2016, 10:40:46 AM »
hmmm, how does an understanding of the material world not start from a philosophic position?

Of course any scientific investigation of the material world starts with a thought. Is that a philosophical position?

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33187
Re: Evangelising young children
« Reply #93 on: August 22, 2016, 10:58:13 AM »
You have certainly claimed this but you always run away from the thread before explaining how you know these things to be non naturalistic. In case you have forgotten this is where we were up to.

http://www.religionethics.co.uk/index.php?topic=12376.msg628794#msg628794

You have several posts on that thread awaiting answers.
The more you play the naturalistic card the more naturalism becomes only distinguishable by it's ''Anything but God'' imperative.

And that is a lousy basis for veracity as it is well within the orbit of a circular argument.


Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64304
Re: Evangelising young children
« Reply #94 on: August 22, 2016, 11:11:29 AM »
Of course any scientific investigation of the material world starts with a thought. Is that a philosophical position?
but surely it implies the position that it is understandable?

Alien

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 21794
  • Formerly known as "Black Dwarf"
Re: Evangelising young children
« Reply #95 on: August 22, 2016, 01:27:34 PM »
Alien,

There's a difference between being taught what to think and being taught how to think.

Try reading the article.
Yeh, done that. Now what?
Apparently 99.9975% atheist because I believe in one out of 4000 believed in (an atheist on Facebook). Yes, check the maths as well.

Alien

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 21794
  • Formerly known as "Black Dwarf"
Re: Evangelising young children
« Reply #96 on: August 22, 2016, 01:30:25 PM »
Hmmm it does seem loaded to the idea that religion is bad which is surely a 'what' to think?
Wot NS said.
Apparently 99.9975% atheist because I believe in one out of 4000 believed in (an atheist on Facebook). Yes, check the maths as well.

Alien

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 21794
  • Formerly known as "Black Dwarf"
Re: Evangelising young children
« Reply #97 on: August 22, 2016, 01:32:04 PM »
Looks and sounds about right to me, I'm sure it's not perfect but there's no indoctrination involved, which of course, has to be better than piling on the usual load of old religious tripe.

ippy
Again, wot NS said.
Apparently 99.9975% atheist because I believe in one out of 4000 believed in (an atheist on Facebook). Yes, check the maths as well.

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64304
Re: Evangelising young children
« Reply #98 on: August 22, 2016, 01:37:23 PM »
Again, wot NS said.


Good to see you posting again.

Maeght

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5679
Re: Evangelising young children
« Reply #99 on: August 22, 2016, 02:05:53 PM »
but surely it implies the position that it is understandable?

Sorry?