Author Topic: Evangelising young children  (Read 32751 times)

Maeght

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Re: Evangelising young children
« Reply #150 on: August 23, 2016, 05:03:41 PM »
Because unbelief is not the default position until you check out possible evidence.

You can't have a belief in something you know nothing about can you?

Étienne d'Angleterre

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Re: Evangelising young children
« Reply #151 on: August 23, 2016, 05:04:58 PM »
You believe that they could be either odd or even.
So you have a belief about the oddness and evenness of the number.

In the case of my lawn I KNOW that they will be either odd or even. However, as I have no evidence to point to which is true I lack belief. I don't know which position is correct. No belief involved at all.

BeRational

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Re: Evangelising young children
« Reply #152 on: August 23, 2016, 05:18:22 PM »
Because unbelief is not the default position until you check out possible evidence.

Yes it is, how could it be otherwise.

There are an infinite number of things you could believe in, but at the moment you do not, because you are not aware of them.
I see gullible people, everywhere!

Spud

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Re: Evangelising young children
« Reply #153 on: August 23, 2016, 05:19:19 PM »
So do you personally hold mutually contradictory views as true until you have reviewed the evidence?
Huh? Expand please  :)

Spud

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Re: Evangelising young children
« Reply #154 on: August 23, 2016, 05:20:03 PM »
You can't have a belief in something you know nothing about can you?
No, that's why I said 'read the Bible'.

BeRational

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Re: Evangelising young children
« Reply #155 on: August 23, 2016, 05:21:31 PM »
Huh? Expand please  :)

You seem to suggest that you believe everything until it is shown to be wrong.

In reality the default position is to NOT believe anything until the evidence compels you.
I see gullible people, everywhere!

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Evangelising young children
« Reply #156 on: August 23, 2016, 05:23:34 PM »
I'm sure you do, but that's not the case. I have absolutely no belief in god or Gods, but accept I could be wrong and gods or God may exist, I just don't currently have a belief in any. You cannot prove a negative so cannot say with certainty that there is no God or gods but I certainly have no belief in any.
But would you say that like the grass in BR's garden it is as likely there is a God as God free?

Is suggesting a universe which is God free a negative?

If I am the controller of the Piccadilly Line I could confirm that the line was cow free for instance.


Étienne d'Angleterre

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Re: Evangelising young children
« Reply #157 on: August 23, 2016, 05:30:09 PM »
Huh? Expand please  :)

You said that unbelief was not the default option. Therefore, belief is the default option. Therefore, given two or more contradictory claims you must hold them all to be true unless you hold unbelief or non belief to be the default.

Spud

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Re: Evangelising young children
« Reply #158 on: August 23, 2016, 05:36:23 PM »
Ok why would that help?
I assume you know there are other holy book for other gods, but that has not persuaded you, so the existence of a book is not the driver.

Why would I believe stuff written in a book.

That is not evidence of a god, that is evidence that people believed in a god.

I already know that people believe in a god, I just cannot understand why.

It didn't start as a book, but as word of mouth. It's someone's testimony. I feel like I should let others explain this to you because I am rubbish at it. gods with a small g are really just objects and it is common sense that they have no personality or power except what we give them. It is also common sense that a being which created the physical universe would have a personality, since it created beings with personalities. The Bible is a bit like when you are given an equation with an unknown, 'x', then you are told the value of x and asked to prove that it's the correct value. Suppose x is the manifestation of the creator of the universe. Now prove that Jesus is x by reading the Old and New Testaments.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Evangelising young children
« Reply #159 on: August 23, 2016, 05:39:07 PM »
You said that unbelief was not the default option. Therefore, belief is the default option. Therefore, given two or more contradictory claims you must hold them all to be true unless you hold unbelief or non belief to be the default.

I think the agnostic position is the default option. That means one cannot commit to one or the other. I don't actually know many in that position.

Gordon

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Re: Evangelising young children
« Reply #160 on: August 23, 2016, 05:39:59 PM »
But would you say that like the grass in BR's garden it is as likely there is a God as God free?

Perhaps a step back is needed in terms of definitions since while it seems we can define 'grass' in terms that we could all sign up to, which makes coming to a view about whether or not grass is present a meaningful question - but we don't seem to have a definition of 'god' that works on the same basis as 'grass' does.

Without a definition of 'god' that is precise enough to engage with - and to date I've yet to see one that wasn't fallacious - there isn't anything in the label 'god' that is sufficient as a meaningful definition.

Spud

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Re: Evangelising young children
« Reply #161 on: August 23, 2016, 05:44:12 PM »
You seem to suggest that you believe everything until it is shown to be wrong.

In reality the default position is to NOT believe anything until the evidence compels you.

That sounds OK. However, if someone were to say, there are millions more stars than you can see with the naked eye, and tell me he has seen them, then I wouldn't believe or disbelieve until I'd seen them for myself.

Maeght

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Re: Evangelising young children
« Reply #162 on: August 23, 2016, 05:46:05 PM »
No, that's why I said 'read the Bible'.

We were talking about atheism being the default position weren't we and I'm not sure anyone just born can read the Bible can they?

Spud

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Re: Evangelising young children
« Reply #163 on: August 23, 2016, 05:46:18 PM »
I think the agnostic position is the default option. That means one cannot commit to one or the other. I don't actually know many in that position.
Yep.

Maeght

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Re: Evangelising young children
« Reply #164 on: August 23, 2016, 05:47:06 PM »
You seem to suggest that you believe everything until it is shown to be wrong.

In reality the default position is to NOT believe anything until the evidence compels you.

Not too sure about that.

Maeght

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Re: Evangelising young children
« Reply #165 on: August 23, 2016, 05:49:42 PM »
I think the agnostic position is the default option. That means one cannot commit to one or the other. I don't actually know many in that position.

That's not what agnostic means. though is it? It ios a philosphical position about whether it is possible to know about the existence of God or gods, not an I'm not 100% sure either way position.

Gordon

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Re: Evangelising young children
« Reply #166 on: August 23, 2016, 05:53:59 PM »
It didn't start as a book, but as word of mouth. It's someone's testimony.

Which involves the risks of mistakes and lies, and unless you can deal with these risks without special pleading creeping in then this testimony is inadequate (given these risks).

If you can't deal with these risks, and you can't given the provenance problems alone (putting the claims to one side) then the Bible is no more than culturally relevant, and decliningly so.

Quote
The Bible is a bit like when you are given an equation with an unknown, 'x', then you are told the value of x and asked to prove that it's the correct value. Suppose x is the manifestation of the creator of the universe. Now prove that Jesus is x by reading the Old and New Testaments.

On this basis I can 'prove' that Sherlock Holmes smoked a pipe: can you now see the problem with taking the Bible contents as being factual?
« Last Edit: August 23, 2016, 05:58:48 PM by Gordon »

Bubbles

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Re: Evangelising young children
« Reply #167 on: August 23, 2016, 06:09:28 PM »
Children do not have a choice.

Yes they do, they may be forced to go through the motions at a young age, but what you think and believe is your own.

This is because children are open to many different interpretations of things and as they grow up they form opinions of their own.

I suspect the children who sometimes take the religious route do so because of the peer group they mix with.

What they really really believe, may not be what people assume it is.

Because most children go to school ( that teaches a broad spectrum )  they get a balance of things taught plus with a child's natural challenging of parential views, I'm surprised people think children just meekly wander into religion because their parents did.

One only has to see Floo's  posts sometimes, and you realise sometimes religious parents can actually put children off.

Children might be powerless to express it at a young age, but as they get older they do.

The best protection for children is a broad education.

That way, they make their own choices.

It's when you take away a broad education that their choices lessen.

It's a matter of perception as to whether that is a good or bad thing and many religious schools try to protect their youngsters from things like drugs and unwanted pregnancy by not giving them such a broad education about such matters.

The argument is that as their experiences are limited, so their need to be educated about the more negative elements of our society, lessens.

Think the Amish or chabad Jews.

Because the child doesn't mix within a society that gets involved in drugs etc, it is already protected.

Well, so the argument goes.

« Last Edit: August 23, 2016, 06:16:11 PM by Rose »

Sebastian Toe

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Re: Evangelising young children
« Reply #168 on: August 23, 2016, 06:12:59 PM »
No, that's why I said 'read the Bible'.
Have you read the Qran?
Have you read the Book of Mormon?
Have you read the Bhagavad Gita?
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
Albert Einstein

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Evangelising young children
« Reply #169 on: August 23, 2016, 06:18:29 PM »
Have you read the Qran?
Have you read the Book of Mormon?
Have you read the Bhagavad Gita?
I've read bits. fairly large Bits.
In my twenties they all these and the Bible seemed fairly dry dusty and meaningless. They didn't get me going at all.

That changed and the Bible began to mean something to me the others don't so much although one can appreciate the sweep of their canvasses.

Étienne d'Angleterre

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Re: Evangelising young children
« Reply #170 on: August 23, 2016, 06:27:06 PM »
I think the agnostic position is the default option. That means one cannot commit to one or the other. I don't actually know many in that position.

As Meaght has pointed out this only shows that you don't understand what agnostic means.

But you also show your dodgy reasoning in equating possible with equally probable, as you did in an earlier post. Just because something cannot be shown to be false does not mean that the chances of it being true are 50:50. I think this is where you make your biggest mistake. You tell us that you have had an experience of God. We can't say whether you are correct or not in ascribing the cause of your experience to an objectively true God or just a God experience. That does not mean that they are 50:50. Seriously, think about it for a few minutes.

By the way, I notice that you have not responded to request to name those how are dishonest believers.


Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Evangelising young children
« Reply #171 on: August 23, 2016, 06:31:42 PM »
As Meaght has pointed out this only shows that you don't understand what agnostic means.

But you also show your dodgy reasoning in equating possible with equally probable, as you did in an earlier post. Just because something cannot be shown to be false does not mean that the chances of it being true are 50:50. I think this is where you make your biggest mistake. You tell us that you have had an experience of God. We can't say whether you are correct or not in ascribing the cause of your experience to an objectively true God or just a God experience. That does not mean that they are 50:50. Seriously, think about it for a few minutes.


Steady on Taylor old chap. It was Be Rational who introduced the analogy of odd and even Grass. Not me......it's a completely shite analogy IMHO.

A god experience? That would be a phenomena of mental incompetence I take it.....and I think you hope it.....or at least believe it.

Étienne d'Angleterre

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Re: Evangelising young children
« Reply #172 on: August 23, 2016, 06:55:45 PM »
Steady on Taylor old chap. It was Be Rational who introduced the analogy of odd and even Grass. Not me......it's a completely shite analogy IMHO.

A god experience? That would be a phenomena of mental incompetence I take it.....and I think you hope it.....or at least believe it.

No, I only ask you how you can tell it is a true experience of an objectively true God. It's what I have always asked and never received a response.

But do you except that in BR's analogy no belief is required? As I pointed out.

And still we wait for the names of the lying believers.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Evangelising young children
« Reply #173 on: August 23, 2016, 07:21:14 PM »
No, I only ask you how you can tell it is a true experience of an objectively true God. It's what I have always asked and never received a response.

But do you except that in BR's analogy no belief is required? As I pointed out.

And still we wait for the names of the lying believers.
There are only two ways to go in any experience. It's happening or it is psychological incompetence.

What are you talking about 'lying believers'

Étienne d'Angleterre

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Re: Evangelising young children
« Reply #174 on: August 23, 2016, 07:25:53 PM »
There are only two ways to go in any experience. It's happening or it is psychological incompetence.

What are you talking about 'lying believers'

No. You have an experience, no one doubts that. But what is the cause of it? That is logic.

You mentioned lying atheists that really believed. If you really believe you are not an atheist.

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 unless you are a stinking lying atheist of the type who pretends to a lack of belief.