Burkini vs Bikini

[Nearly Sane]

Oh so I'm an antisecularist now?

Mind you if being a secularist involves wearing a uniform these days.

which is why I put seem in the post, you certainly seem to show dislike for secularists. Is it just like your Dawkins thing, that deep down you love them?

[Nearly Sane]

Respect works both ways.

Well yes, in this case the woman wearing the burkini needs to respect those wearing bikinis, and she was doing that, the authorities did reciprocate with the respect so your position in this post would support the woman.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

which is why I put seem in the post, you certainly seem to show dislike for secularists. Is it just like your Dawkins thing, that deep down you love them?

What I disliked about secularist was the self righteous disdain for religion on the grounds that religion affected personal liberty while failing to see the same potential in their own movement as has been demonstrated on a beach in Nice.

[BeRational]

Well yes, in this case the woman wearing the burkini needs to respect those wearing bikinis, and she was doing that, the authorities did reciprocate with the respect so your position in this post would support the woman.

The woman needs to respect the normal dress code of the culture she is in.

She can leave at any time.

[Nearly Sane]

There is no right or wrong just accepted norms.

In the sense of objective right and wrong then I agree. And I don't have any problems with the complete relativist position but if you take that any comments you make that include a 'should' are meaningless. In that sense there are no accepted norms as they include a should. There is merely behaviour. If that is your position then the woman wore a burkini, she was made to remove it is the entirety of what your position would allow on the subject.

[Nearly Sane]

The woman needs to respect the normal dress code of the culture she is in.

She can leave at any time.

'Needs' is a word involving right and wrong (even if subjectively) but you have said there is no right and wrong. Can you take a consistent position here?

And again did Wilberforce need to respect the slavery code he was in?

[JP]

Well yes, in this case the woman wearing the burkini needs to respect those wearing bikinis, and she was doing that, the authorities did reciprocate with the respect so your position in this post would support the woman.

Why the fixation on bikinis. It isn't about respect for the wearing, or the not wearing of bikinis. I would wager there were other females on the beach who were wearing other, more traditional types of swimsuit or perhaps not even a swimsuit but leggings and a tee shirt and these would not be troubled by the police.

In addition I dont believe anyone expected the victom to wear a bikini of show copious amounts of flesh.

[Nearly Sane]

Why the fixation on bikinis. It isn't about respect for the wearing, or the not wearing of bikinis. I would wager there were other females on the beach who were wearing other, more traditional types of swimsuit or perhaps not even a swimsuit but leggings and a tee shirt and these would not be troubled by the police.

In addition I dont believe anyone expected the victom to wear a bikini of show copious amounts of flesh.

No fixation it's just the word association. And the woman was respecting all the other options as well. She just didn't get the respect to her way that you were arguing for in your 'Respect works both ways' post

[Nearly Sane]

Anyway to get back to the point of the article, I don't think this approach either achieves what it seeks to, and isn't really the pressing problem. Yes, I think the burkini ban is wrong (subjectively) but that's because I celebrate the freedom of western liberalism and condemn the oppression of women in our society by those who justify it in the name of their god, or male superiority or whatever idiocy. And the oppression of women in states founded on such idiocies

[JP]

Anyway to get back to the point of the article, I don't think this approach either achieves what it seeks to, and isn't really the pressing problem. Yes, I think the burkini ban is wrong (subjectively) but that's because I celebrate the freedom of western liberalism and condemn the oppression of women in our society by those who justify it in the name of their god, or male superiority or whatever idiocy. And the oppression of women in states founded on such idiocies

What, in your opinion, is the pressing problem?

[Nearly Sane]

What, in your opinion, is the pressing problem?

in this area, the one that I went on to outline in the post you replied to and as outlined in the link in the OP

[Gordon]

I'd have to say, and we've holidayed in France and spent time on French beaches over the last 30 years, that I find this move both silly and scary at the same time.

I can understand it is in part a reaction to atrocities but it is counter-productive by enhancing a 'them and us' mentality, and it also smacks of a 'we need to be seen to do something, and this is something we can be seen to be doing' approach, which in my experience is rarely a sensible strategy. Those behind this seem to have forgotten the 'liberte' element - and that what anyone chooses to wear on a beach in terms of clothing (or lack of) is surely a matter of personal choice.

I've been a regular on French beaches for years and, being a pale Scot who is also follically challenged, I have always worn T-shirts and hat even when swimming: that I could do so again and be left alone while muslim ladies are restricted is in my view deplorable and offensive.

There may well be wider issues in France but I doubt this is an effective way to deal with them.

     

[JP]

Was your tee shirt and hat combination a religious statement / symbol?

Don't get me wrong, I am uncomfortable with the treatment of this lady however there needs to be some middle ground in life. If give only comes one way then there is bound to be something snap.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Anyway to get back to the point of the article, I don't think this approach either achieves what it seeks to, and isn't really the pressing problem. Yes, I think the burkini ban is wrong (subjectively) but that's because I celebrate the freedom of western liberalism and condemn the oppression of women in our society by those who justify it in the name of their god, or male superiority or whatever idiocy. And the oppression of women in states founded on such idiocies

You have seem to have cleverly avoided this as a secular act, in the name of of secularism and are now back onto religious oppression.

This is not in this instance a religious event but a secularising event
which secularism must own.
Religion says God sees hearts. Secularism on this occasion has practically just seen well bathing costumes. If it teaches secularists of the extremities of their position then lesson well learned.

[Nearly Sane]

Was your tee shirt and hat combination a religious statement / symbol?

Don't get me wrong, I am uncomfortable with the treatment of this lady however there needs to be some middle ground in life. If give only comes one way then there is bound to be something snap.

and the woman was perfectly happy with others dressed differently. That's her give. Where is the give from the police?

[JP]

It is not about the individual.

[Nearly Sane]

You have seem to have cleverly avoided this as a secular act, in the name of of secularism and are now back onto religious oppression.

This is not in this instance a religious event but a secularising event
which secularism must own.
Religion says God sees hearts. Secularism on this occasion has practically just seen well bathing costumes. If it teaches secularists of the extremities of their position then lesson well learned.

Perhaps you need to read the link in the OP because this reads as if you are making this equivalent to honour killings. You need to stop with your naive misrepresentations about people's positions and engage because you have just equated this action, wrong as I think it was, to the murder of women just to suit your vacuous wummery. Grow the fuck up.

[Nearly Sane]

It is not about the individual.

it is from the viewpoint of the individual. And there are in the end only individuals

[JP]

Seems selfish to me, not looking at the greater good.

[Nearly Sane]

Seems selfish to me, not looking at the greater good.

That's sort of what freedom is, and then there is the difficulty if establishing the greater good, though that is covered in the link in the OP as to why this isn't in their opinion in the interests of the greater good.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Perhaps you need to read the link in the OP because this reads as if you are making this equivalent to honour killings. You need to stop with your naive misrepresentations about people's positions and engage because you have just equated this action, wrong as I think it was, to the murder of women just to suit your vacuous wummery. Grow the fuck up.

You are doing it again with your yes this is bad but it is not as bad as religious killing of women.
Non fucking sequitur pal.
This swimsuit business is a secularist fuck up caused by not allowing religious people forum. Secularists have been caught up in their own dogmatism.
Hopefully lessons will be learned .

As for lying. You seem to have leapt on this Vlad loves Dawkins bit.
Vlad does not love Dawkins for reasons not totally unassociated with the Beach balls up.

[Gordon]

Was your tee shirt and hat combination a religious statement / symbol?

Don't get me wrong, I am uncomfortable with the treatment of this lady however there needs to be some middle ground in life. If give only comes one way then there is bound to be something snap.

It was, of course, high fashion (not really) but why would that really matter?

That someone dresses in a manner that relates to their personal/family/cultural background isn't by default a political statement - I suspect that in many places there is a mix of populations of various cultural identities who dress in related ways.

If the beach attire issue was in any sense a significant threat to France then surely there would be beach patrols on every beach within France right now: but I doubt there are, or that there ever should be. To me this smacks of reactionary hysteria, and I can understand why this is the case in places like Nice, but I suspect their interventions on the beach are causing rather than solving problems.

[floo]

The burkini ban has been suspended.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-37198479?ns_mchannel=social&ns_campaign=bbc_breaking&ns_source=twitter&ns_linkname=news_central

[JP]

I think France is in a difficult place right now. I think that also understates the future battles that may need to be fought there and elswhere.

[Nearly Sane]

You are doing it again with your yes this is bad but it is not as bad as religious killing of women.
Non fucking sequitur pal.
This swimsuit business is a secularist fuck up caused by not allowing religious people forum. Secularists have been caught up in their own dogmatism.
Hopefully lessons will be learned .

As for lying. You seem to have leapt on this Vlad loves Dawkins bit.
Vlad does not love Dawkins for reasons not totally unassociated with the Beach balls up.

The Dawkins bit was a joke. Again grow up.

Read the link in the OP since all of your posting here indicates you didn't. And then you will realise why it isn't a non sequitur. I have been nothing but condemnatory of the actions taken


There are times when , if someone said you were a sock puppet of Shaker's trying to make theists look bad, I would agree. This is one.