Burkini vs Bikini

[Nearly Sane]

I think France is in a difficult place right now. I think that also understates the future battles that may need to be fought there and elswhere.

eh?

[Harrowby Hall]

France has a muslim population that is about twice that of the UK. For the most part, they live in the banlieue of large cities, often in ghettos.

Politically, France has difficulties. It has a President, Francois Hollande, who makes David Cameron look competent. The main opposition to him appears to be coming from the far right FN led by Marine Le Pen. She is acquiring the same kind of working class/lower middle class/late in life support that Farage managed to generate. Local elections last year saw a large number of FN local councillors being elected.

There is a presidential election due next April. There may be as many as a dozen candidates taking part. Under the French electoral system, in the event of there being no absolute majority for one of the candidates, the two best performing candidates submit themselves to a second poll. This could quite possibly see Miss Le Pen elected as president.

Were this to happen, just imagine the sort of populist policies that might emerge ....

As a secular state, France is not anti-religion, there is just no state involvement with religion. Most public holidays are important dates in the christian calendar.

In my commune, there are three churches. The are the property of the commune and are caringly maintained. They are available for use on request and largest church, in the village is used by both Roman Catholics and Anglicans.

[JP]

eh?

Political and social. Le Pen and Sarkozy poll leaders in France, Wilders in the Netherlands, Norbert Hofer in Austria with Merkel losing her grip.

A great many people do not like, or are uncomfortable with what is happening in Europe and would like something done about it. Right wing parties are either right up there or in the lead.

[Nearly Sane]

Political and social. Le Pen and Sarkozy poll leaders in France, Wilders in the Netherlands, Norbert Hofer in Austria with Merkel losing her grip.

A great many people do not like, or are uncomfortable with what is happening in Europe and would like something done about it. Right wing parties are either right up there or in the lead.

which is true but tells me nothing about what battles you think will be in the future?

[JP]

Political and social battles / campaigns / struggles / conflicts ....

[JP]

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/08/france-right-ban-burkini/

[Jack Knave]

Political and social battles / campaigns / struggles / conflicts ....

The ironic thing is is that it is possible that when the UK is ready to leave the EU, when article 50 is completed and signed and sealed, there will be no EU to leave. The other thing is that due to the elections in France and Germany next year the people we will be negotiating with may not be Hollande and Merkel.

And what with the Italian banks on the verge of going bust how is the EU going to bail it out?

[ippy]

France has a muslim population that is about twice that of the UK. For the most part, they live in the banlieue of large cities, often in ghettos.

Politically, France has difficulties. It has a President, Francois Hollande, who makes David Cameron look competent. The main opposition to him appears to be coming from the far right FN led by Marine Le Pen. She is acquiring the same kind of working class/lower middle class/late in life support that Farage managed to generate. Local elections last year saw a large number of FN local councillors being elected.

There is a presidential election due next April. There may be as many as a dozen candidates taking part. Under the French electoral system, in the event of there being no absolute majority for one of the candidates, the two best performing candidates submit themselves to a second poll. This could quite possibly see Miss Le Pen elected as president.

Were this to happen, just imagine the sort of populist policies that might emerge ....

As a secular state, France is not anti-religion, there is just no state involvement with religion. Most public holidays are important dates in the christian calendar.

In my commune, there are three churches. The are the property of the commune and are caringly maintained. They are available for use on request and largest church, in the village is used by both Roman Catholics and Anglicans.

Sounds totally civilised to me.

ippy

[Jack Knave]

Sounds totally civilised to me.

ippy

Even the non integrated Muslim ghettos and the historical way they have come about?

[Hope]

From what I've read about the issue, the ban was imposed as a result of the Nice attack, and the French fears of further attacks that could have weapons concealed by full-body costumes.  I notice that the French court have overturned the ban.  Will the cities concerned appeal that decision?

[Brownie]

The Burkini is little different to a wet suit but with added headgear, a little more chic too imo*.  Will every person wearing a wet suit and a swimming cap be asked to remove bits or be searched in case they are 'hiding' something?

*http://metro.co.uk/2016/04/02/now-everybodys-rowing-over-marks-and-spencers-new-burkini-range-5790628/

[ippy]

Even the non integrated Muslim ghettos and the historical way they have come about?

I should have been more precise J K, I was referring to the part that post that starts with, 'As a secular state', the rest of it well, I anyone wants to walk around in this weather with a load of old rags wrapped around their heads, good luck to them and the same with their berkinis.

ippy

[Bubbles]

I do not condone the behaviour of French officialdom, but don't forget this is a country which has suffered seriously from islamic extremism. Only a month ago 85 people were mown to death during a national celebration just around the corner from those beaches. I think that the article Sriram quotes has failed to acknowledge the context.

To a significant extent France is on "red alert" for any hint of terrorist aggression and a burkha could conceal a bomb.

I think the point that Jeremyp is making is quite important. Moslem women are trapped between intolerant husbands and a state whose tolerance is now dangerously low.

So-called islamic clothing is - of course - nothing of the sort. It is merely a device used in patriarchal societies to keep women in "their place". A recent BBC 2 series of the history of the treatment of women showed that such clothing existed long before the coming of islam and that, in fact, it was used by the ancient Greeks. It would seem that the flowering of democracy was a male-only achievement!

So could a bra, or it could be stuffed down someone's knickers, and don't forget the shoe bomber.

I'm not walking around nude for anyone   

[Brownie]

I think the outfits are extremely fetching, not only protect the skin from too much sun but also protect head and hair.

As for those who say they are symbolic of male oppression, well, we are not living in Saudi and a vast number of young Muslim women in this country have decided for themselves to wear head covering, they speak openly about it in interviews.  I've no doubt it is the same in other countries.  What are we to do, stop people wearing what they feel is right for them?

I do understand how the French feel after what has happened and I sympathise but even they must realise that the majority of Muslim people are not terrorists and you can't hide a bomb under a bathing costume that easily - and go swimming with it.   Reminds me of years ago when there were IRA terrorist attacks and people were going around being suspicious of anyone who was Irish.

[Sriram]

Got a picture of the Statue of Liberty in a bikini with the caption...'The French were here folks!'

Says it all! 

[Bubbles]

I'm someone who likes to cover up on the beach as I'm not interested in getting a tan and hate getting burnt.

On top of that I have scars that I am self conscious about.

I would be furious if I was told to bare any part of my anatomy I wanted to cover.

I think France is OTT, even if they have had some terrorist attacks.

How dare the police go around telling women to bare their arms and legs or be fined.

Not everyone wants to get burnt, albinos have to cover up. So do lots of red heads if they don't want to contract skin cancer.

People accept wet suits and the Burkini isn't very different.

At a pool where I swim regularly, we have a lady that wears one.

I wouldn't dream of objecting.

France isn't somewhere I would want to go on holiday tbh.

Police Insisting I strip off on the beach is as offensive as the ones in Saudi Arabia dictating what I wear.

Can't say either country appeals to me for a beach holiday for exactly the same reason.

I think the French have made a big mistake by dictating what can be worn on the beach.

If you don't apply it to surfers as well,  it's just veiled racism/sexism.

I bet women surfers don't get told to strip off.

You can't hide much under a wet suit, tbh.

All the Muslim women need is a wet suit with semi transparent robes ( to hide their shape). Which is what the woman in my local pool seems to be wearing.

Plus as Wigginhall has already pointed out some people cover up due to cancer or as in my case scars.


It's all a bit silly.

IMO.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-37198479

According to that there is a good chance it will be overturned

[Gordon]

I'm struggling to understand why some seem to think it justifiable to force Muslim women to remove certain items of clothing while also thinking unjustifiable to force Muslim women to wear certain items of clothing. It seems incongruous to me.

[Bubbles]

 

Seriously?



Burkini ban: France threatens legal action against social media users for sharing photos of police enforcing law
‘I am denouncing a manipulation that undermines the local police,’ French official says

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/france-threatens-sue-social-media-users-sharing-burkini-ban-photos-nice-christian-estrosi-a7208646.html

So much for France being a free country. People can't even criticise without threats of legal action. 
 

[Bubbles]

"Access to beaches and for swimming is banned to any person wearing improper clothes that are not respectful of good morals and secularism"
"Beachwear which ostentatiously displays religious affiliation, when France and places of worship are currently the target of terrorist attacks, is liable to create risks of disrupting public order"
The infringement is punishable with a fine of €38 (£33)
The ban remains in place until 31 August 2016


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-37173673

Respectful of good morals  and secularism can mean anything from stopping topless bathing onwards.

Secularism to me, in regards to being respectful on the beach would be accepting different styles of dress or none ( example: some nudist beaches allowed) covering up ok. Each to his own.

Being respectful of secularism isn't what France is doing IMO.

[Brownie]

I agree with you Rose but this will pass.  It's horrible right now but a few years down the line and France will be back to how it was, at least in the big cities, ie cosmopolitan, multicultural.  Those are virtues that the French once celebrated, more than we ever did here.

[Nearly Sane]

It's worth understanding that the French state version of secularism has often been thought to be a stronger version than many countries. Historically it is often linked to the anti clericalism of the Revolution, which I see as a stretch.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laïcité

[Harrowby Hall]

Got a picture of the Statue of Liberty in a bikini with the caption...'The French were here folks!'

Says it all! 

Why should that surprise anyone? The Statue of Liberty was a gift from France to the USA. 

[JP]

I agree with you Rose but this will pass.  It's horrible right now but a few years down the line and France will be back to how it was, at least in the big cities, ie cosmopolitan, multicultural.  Those are virtues that the French once celebrated, more than we ever did here.

You reckon? If things remain the same it looks like France, amongst other countries, are about to move right in their choice of leader.

I disaree with you about France celebrating multiculturalism, and would also question whether we ever have here, other than in the minds of the supporters of such a mad idea. Fairly recently Merkel, Cameron and Trevor Phillips have all pretty much said it is a failure and I make no secret of the fact that it does nothing for me.

To me the French like to be, well French. I have travelled fairly extensively and apart from areas of minorities or mixed, the shops and restaurants are traditionally French. Carrefour and Auchan sell French stuff. Unlike Asda and other retailers here they do not have "make your own pizza" counters or anywhere you can get a curry. The French high street is still occupied by traditional french traders and 99% of the markets we have been to are, guess what, French traders.

In France, and throughout Europe, I cannot see it getting better. I think many people there have reached tipping point.

With regard to the beach thing, as I said earlier I disgree in part with the ban and also with the way it was handled, however I would question the motives of the individual being there, probably fully aware of the ban ( if she was not then she must be living in some sort of bubble) then choosing to undress when the better option giver her need to remain modest, would have been to get up and leave. The whole thing was just too nice for the photographer. Ask in this instance why did people applaud the police.

I see there was a brawl on a beach in Corsica as well. Non Muslim vs Muslim. Doesn't sound too good to me.

[Bubbles]

I don't have much sympathy for the Muslims involved in the beach brawl in Corsica.

Apparently they tried to stop people using the "public" beach by insults and attacking them.

This then escalated and the locals turned up.

It didn't really have much to do with burkinis but a bunch of thugs ( one of whom appears to be a drug dealer) trying to exclude people from a public beach.

 

The prosecutor’s conclusions play down the role of Islamic radicalism in the affair, but the fact that the women were not wearing burkinis but full Islamic dress is immaterial. There was a deliberate attempt by the family to take over a public beach and prevent others from using it through verbal and physical violence. There could not be a clearer demonstration that they are refusing to coexist with the local population and prefer to live apart. Such an attitude can only be driven by religious radicalism and hostility to France.


http://www.clarionproject.org/analysis/burkini-battle-what-really-happened-corsica

Anyone who is considered " a foreigner" who excludes the public from a public beach by being obnoxious is likely to meet resistance from the locals.

Religion doesn't come into it.

Even a local trying it, is likely to cause an uproar!

Can you imagine someone insulting people trying to go onto one of our public beaches?

It wouldn't end well.

The only beaches you can exclude people from, are privately owned ones.

It sounds like these people were criminals trying it on, who just happen to call themselves Muslim, who got reported that way because it's what papers and media want to see.

None of the women were wearing a burkini.

It all spreads intolerance.

However you can't have people turning up and excluding other people from public beaches, either like this or because they choose to wear a burkini.

The public should have access to public beaches regardless of how they dress, the minimum probably being a bikini.

Even then topless sun bathing doesn't hurt anyone else if done subtly.

And there are nudist beaches for those who want to let it all hang out 

[jeremyp]

Having said that it might be an idea to ban American  baseball caps here in the U K and introduce heavy fine  for those that do insist on wearing them in public places, unless of curse, they have a good medical reason for wearing one.

I have a good medical reason for wearing one - a sunburnt head is quite painful for me.