Burkini vs Bikini

[Jack Knave]

From what I've read about the issue, the ban was imposed as a result of the Nice attack, and the French fears of further attacks that could have weapons concealed by full-body costumes.  I notice that the French court have overturned the ban.  Will the cities concerned appeal that decision?

Exactly. Would we be having all this fuss over them if there hadn't been ISIS and terrorist attacks? Of course not. We'd be saying you can wear what you like. There's a context here. I think this Muslim thing will be France's 'immigration' straw that breaks the camel's back (elections coming up; Sarkozy using it fend off the FN), just as immigration was an issue for the UK.

[jeremyp]

Exactly. Would we be having all this fuss over them if there hadn't been ISIS and terrorist attacks? Of course not. We'd be saying you can wear what you like. There's a context here. I think this Muslim thing will be France's 'immigration' straw that breaks the camel's back (elections coming up; Sarkozy using it fend off the FN), just as immigration was an issue for the UK.

The fact that there is a context doesn't mean the measure isn't just panic, or more likely politicians wanting to be seen to be doing something rather than nothing.

Neither the Nice attack nor the Paris attacks would have been prevented by a Burkini ban. For a start, they were all perpetrated by men.

[Jack Knave]

You reckon? If things remain the same it looks like France, amongst other countries, are about to move right in their choice of leader.

I disaree with you about France celebrating multiculturalism, and would also question whether we ever have here, other than in the minds of the supporters of such a mad idea. Fairly recently Merkel, Cameron and Trevor Phillips have all pretty much said it is a failure and I make no secret of the fact that it does nothing for me.

To me the French like to be, well French. I have travelled fairly extensively and apart from areas of minorities or mixed, the shops and restaurants are traditionally French. Carrefour and Auchan sell French stuff. Unlike Asda and other retailers here they do not have "make your own pizza" counters or anywhere you can get a curry. The French high street is still occupied by traditional french traders and 99% of the markets we have been to are, guess what, French traders.

In France, and throughout Europe, I cannot see it getting better. I think many people there have reached tipping point.

With regard to the beach thing, as I said earlier I disgree in part with the ban and also with the way it was handled, however I would question the motives of the individual being there, probably fully aware of the ban ( if she was not then she must be living in some sort of bubble) then choosing to undress when the better option giver her need to remain modest, would have been to get up and leave. The whole thing was just too nice for the photographer. Ask in this instance why did people applaud the police.

I see there was a brawl on a beach in Corsica as well. Non Muslim vs Muslim. Doesn't sound too good to me.

Pretty spot on post!

[Jack Knave]

I have a good medical reason for wearing one - a sunburnt head is quite painful for me.

Well, it is very big.

[Jack Knave]

The fact that there is a context doesn't mean the measure isn't just panic, or more likely politicians wanting to be seen to be doing something rather than nothing.

Neither the Nice attack nor the Paris attacks would have been prevented by a Burkini ban. For a start, they were all perpetrated by men.

The context is the symbolism of it being Muslim which is associated with ISIS et al. The ban was just a reaction to being bombed and French people being killed.

How would you have felt if you had seen on your British streets symbols that strongly supported the IRA?

[Sriram]

And now French restaurants are not allowing women wearing hijabs!  I told you these French restaurant guys are funny!!!

[Brownie]

Seems you were right, Sririam.  Sad.

[Brownie]

Jack:  The context is the symbolism of it being Muslim which is associated with ISIS et al. The ban was just a reaction to being bombed and French people being killed.


We know that Jack and that is the reason for the over reaction but, seriously, do most people associate Islam with ISIS?  Muslims have lived in France for aeons, peacefully coexisting with everyone else.  As they do here.   Is it fair to be suspicious of our neighbours because of the behaviour of a few?

Certainly we wouldn't have been happy to see IRA banners or whatever during the 'troubles', but it wouldn't have been right to view every second Irish person with suspicion.

[floo]

The context is the symbolism of it being Muslim which is associated with ISIS et al. The ban was just a reaction to being bombed and French people being killed.

How would you have felt if you had seen on your British streets symbols that strongly supported the IRA?

But just because some Muslims are extremists, that doesn't apply to the majority. 
It is very wrong to make an excuse for people tarring them all with the same brush as you appear to be doing.

[Aruntraveller]

Let's ban men with little moustaches. Never trust em.

Also my personal experience in life leads me to suggest that tattoos of the old ink/needle variety - you know the ones that look like varicose veins rather than the beautiful full colour extravaganzas  you get now, should also be banned.

 Some people who have these tattoos have been violent towards me. Banning the tattoos should make it all better.

[JP]

We know that Jack and that is the reason for the over reaction but, seriously, do most people associate Islam with ISIS?  Muslims have lived in France for aeons, peacefully coexisting with everyone else.  As they do here.   Is it fair to be suspicious of our neighbours because of the behaviour of a few?

It isn't just about ISIS though. The recent mass murders and simply exacerbated what was a growing problem in the country. Seperate lives, seperate communities, different values, no shared identity. In 2011 Sarkozy was quoted as saying

multiculturalism was a "failure," warning that such a concept fostered extremism. "We have been too concerned about the identity of the person who was arriving and not enough about the identity of the country that was receiving him

Rest of it here... http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/world/2011/february/frances-sarkozy-multiculturalism-has-failed/?mobile=false

[JP]

Let's ban men with little moustaches. Never trust em.

Also my personal experience in life leads me to suggest that tattoos of the old ink/needle variety - you know the ones that look like varicose veins rather than the beautiful full colour extravaganzas  you get now, should also be banned.

 Some people who have these tattoos have been violent towards me. Banning the tattoos should make it all better.

Yes, mocking, thats a great way to solve it all.

[Brownie]

That's an interesting article, JP.
In recent times I read a report by Trevor Phillips who also believes that multiculturalism doesn't work.  I don't see why it shouldn't, perhaps because I always lived and worked in London which is multicultural; there have always been distinct communities but on the whole they get on well enough with everyone else.

I'll have to think about all this a bit more but going back to the burkini issue, there's nothing wrong with that in my opinion.

[Aruntraveller]

Yes, mocking, thats a great way to solve it all.

I'm not mocking - well maybe a little bit. But it bears repeating that a ban on the Burkini would not have prevented any of the atrocities thus far. Neither would a ban on tattoos have prevented me being beaten up 20 odd years ago. So not really mocking my old son - just trying to apply a little common sense and calm.

[JP]

It isn't just about the burkini though, and it isn't about two women getting an earful from a restaurant owner, it is much, much more than that.

[Udayana]

hmm .. then ... surely people should be engaging with the actual issues, not banning, or endlessly boring on about, various kinds of clothing or symbols.

[jeremyp]

Well, it is very big.

Just because your head is the size of a pin doesn't mean that is normal.

[jeremyp]

The context is the symbolism of it being Muslim which is associated with ISIS et al. The ban was just a reaction to being bombed and French people being killed.

Yes it was a reaction, but a futile one. Terrorists don't tend to wear burkinis. They tend to look like ordinary Western men perhaps with rucksacks.

How would you have felt if you had seen on your British streets symbols that strongly supported the IRA?

How is a Burkini supporting Islamic terrorists?

[jeremyp]

Yes, mocking, thats a great way to solve it all.

It's called satire.

[Jack Knave]

Jack:  The context is the symbolism of it being Muslim which is associated with ISIS et al. The ban was just a reaction to being bombed and French people being killed.


We know that Jack and that is the reason for the over reaction but, seriously, do most people associate Islam with ISIS?  Muslims have lived in France for aeons, peacefully coexisting with everyone else.  As they do here.   Is it fair to be suspicious of our neighbours because of the behaviour of a few?

Certainly we wouldn't have been happy to see IRA banners or whatever during the 'troubles', but it wouldn't have been right to view every second Irish person with suspicion.

But where there is doubt in these type of circumstances there is fear, and fear breeds....

[Jack Knave]

But just because some Muslims are extremists, that doesn't apply to the majority. 
It is very wrong to make an excuse for people tarring them all with the same brush as you appear to be doing.

And what proof do you have for this?

And which ones are the good ones?

You don't know and that breeds fear and mistrust.

[Jack Knave]

Let's ban men with little moustaches. Never trust em.

Also my personal experience in life leads me to suggest that tattoos of the old ink/needle variety - you know the ones that look like varicose veins rather than the beautiful full colour extravaganzas  you get now, should also be banned.

 Some people who have these tattoos have been violent towards me. Banning the tattoos should make it all better.

...and bow ties.

[Jack Knave]

Yes it was a reaction, but a futile one. Terrorists don't tend to wear burkinis. They tend to look like ordinary Western men perhaps with rucksacks.
How is a Burkini supporting Islamic terrorists?

Your psychology, and understanding human nature, never was that good - you need a shrink for that big head of yours.

It is the symbolism! What evokes an emotional response like fear and so on...

[JP]

It's called satire.

Trent said they were possibly mocking a little after I wrote my reply. Had it been satire perhaps Trent should have said it was satire. Nice to see you make a non contribution to a very serious matter.

[Nearly Sane]

And what proof do you have for this?

And which ones are the good ones?

You don't know and that breeds fear and mistrust.

I don't know know which men are violent but some are. That breeds fear and mistrust. Ban men.