Burkini vs Bikini

[Harrowby Hall]

I know where you are coming from, Brownie, and this may be part of the cultural divide - you as a reasonably intelligent, liberal minded westerner.

People also hear statements that seem to say that Islam is not a religion but a complete way of life that cannot tolerate any different system. These people therefore assume that their own culture will be destroyed and replaced by Islam. The behaviour os IS, destroying ancient cultural artefacts only appears to support their cause.

[Udayana]

There is no great difference between peoples. You can find someone from an Amazonian tribe that has been separated from the rest of humanity for thousands of years, and within a few years they are likely to be wearing clothes, going to church, speaking Spanish, Portuguese and/or English and spending most of their waking life poking at a smartphone screen, just like the rest of us.

Whether they should or not, or whether or not we should be happy with people running up and down the high street dressed only in war paint is just a matter of preference and not of any profound significance.

As long as people can be trusted to treat others with consideration, why should there be any conflicts?

[Udayana]

I know where you are coming from, Brownie, and this may be part of the cultural divide - you as a reasonably intelligent, liberal minded westerner.

People also hear statements that seem to say that Islam is not a religion but a complete way of life that cannot tolerate any different system. These people therefore assume that their own culture will be destroyed and replaced by Islam. The behaviour os IS, destroying ancient cultural artefacts only appears to support their cause.

Mostly this can be sorted out by discussion and just living alongside in a tolerant environment. Muslims are not the Borg attempting to assimilate everyone else.

Those such as ISIL /ISIS that have deliberately set about violently forcing their "system" on everyone and have no respect or consideration for human rights need to be stopped, probably by using deadly force, but also by countering their recruitment/conversion methods.

[ippy]

If anyone wants to hear a rational assesment of or about Islam, try listnening to Douglas Murray, on YouTube, he makes more sense to me about this subject than most, like anyone else I doub't he'100% correct with everything he says, even so over all I'll go with his P O V.

ippy

[Brownie]

He's very anti, ippy.  Right wing, neo-fascist (imo).

[Sriram]

I know where you are coming from, Brownie, and this may be part of the cultural divide - you as a reasonably intelligent, liberal minded westerner.

People also hear statements that seem to say that Islam is not a religion but a complete way of life that cannot tolerate any different system. These people therefore assume that their own culture will be destroyed and replaced by Islam. The behaviour os IS, destroying ancient cultural artefacts only appears to support their cause.

For many people, the idea of 'liberal' seems to all about breaking free....!   Its about freedom to be naked...not about freedom to cover up. Its about freedom to divorce and not about freedom to stay married. Its about freedom to take a job and not about freedom to stay at home.  Its about freedom to deny God and his rules...but not about freedom to believe in God and his rules.

As I have said before...its a very adolescent idea of liberty.

[jeremyp]

The study found that 47 percent of French people and 43 percent of Germans felt that the Muslim community poses a “threat” to national identity.

Almost two-thirds of the respondents in France also said that Islam had become too “influential and visible”, whereas just under half of participants said the same in Germany.

And there's more.....

The Ifop poll found that over two-thirds of respondents in both countries thought that Muslims had failed to integrate into society, a situation that 67 percent of French people and 60 percent of Germans blamed on a refusal to adapt to local values and customs.

http://www.france24.com/en/20160429-france-germany-unease-with-islam-rise-new-poll-finds

The problem with surveys like this is people think they measure one thing when they are really measuring something else.

So French people are running scared of Muslims. Is the answer to try to hide Islam from view or to educate the scaredy cats so that they understand that there isn't a serious threat?

[jeremyp]

For many people, the idea of 'liberal' seems to all about breaking free....!   Its about freedom to be naked...not about freedom to cover up. Its about freedom to divorce and not about freedom to stay married. Its about freedom to take a job and not about freedom to stay at home.  Its about freedom to deny God and his rules...but not about freedom to believe in God and his rules.

As I have said before...its a very adolescent idea of liberty.

Could you give some examples of these many people? Make sure that they are real and not constructed from straw.

[ippy]

He's very anti, ippy.  Right wing, neo-fascist (imo).

Whatever politic he is, is of no interest to me, all I think is that Douglas Murray sums up Islam in a nutshell.

ippy

[ippy]

For many people, the idea of 'liberal' seems to all about breaking free....!   Its about freedom to be naked...not about freedom to cover up. Its about freedom to divorce and not about freedom to stay married. Its about freedom to take a job and not about freedom to stay at home.  Its about freedom to deny God and his rules...but not about freedom to believe in God and his rules.

As I have said before...its a very adolescent idea of liberty.

What part of secularism is it that you are having difficulty with Sriram? Only I notice from the text of your post it's pretty obvious you don't understand it.

ippy

[Brownie]

Sririam, for most of us being "liberal" doesn't mean doing just as we like at any given time regardless of consequences to ourselves and society.  There are limits.

[Sriram]

Sririam, for most of us being "liberal" doesn't mean doing just as we like at any given time regardless of consequences to ourselves and society.  There are limits.

Yes...that is probably true for most people. But how these limits are defined could differ from person to person and community to community.

[Harrowby Hall]

Yes...that is probably true for most people. But how these limits are defined could differ from person to person and community to community.

Indeed. And your idea of liberalism appears to be as culturally-bound as any. It is not the liberalism of the liberal democracies of Europe. You seem to confuse "liberalism" with "responsibility", posing the two concepts in opposition with each other.

That may be the way liberalism is perceived in the sub-continent, it is not so in Europe. I'm surprised you did not observe that on your recent visit here.

[Sriram]

Indeed. And your idea of liberalism appears to be as culturally-bound as any. It is not the liberalism of the liberal democracies of Europe. You seem to confuse "liberalism" with "responsibility", posing the two concepts in opposition with each other.

That may be the way liberalism is perceived in the sub-continent, it is not so in Europe. I'm surprised you did not observe that on your recent visit here.

Ha..ha!  Not really! When the French Govt. demands that a woman remove her clothing in a beach to fall in line with French culture and French way of life.......it is most irresponsible!   No doubt about that.

[Brownie]

Yes...that is probably true for most people. But how these limits are defined could differ from person to person and community to community.

Yes indeed Sririam and, following on from HH's post and your response, I'm sure you gleaned some very odd ideas about "liberalism" from your recent European tour  , especially considering your cafe experiences in France. 
Well, let's face it, wherever you live there will be liberal, illiberal and people in between, that's not rocket science.

[Sriram]

Yes indeed Sririam and, following on from HH's post and your response, I'm sure you gleaned some very odd ideas about "liberalism" from your recent European tour  , especially considering your cafe experiences in France. 
Well, let's face it, wherever you live there will be liberal, illiberal and people in between, that's not rocket science.

What I am saying is purely from the French response to burkini. Nothing else. If that is liberalism....there is something wrong. 

[Brownie]

Too right! 
On reflection, I think it is the opposite, quite censorious, but no doubt the French think they are promoting some kind of liberation in that situation.

[Harrowby Hall]

What I am saying is purely from the French response to burkini. Nothing else. If that is liberalism....there is something wrong.

I agree. However, it wasn't a French government response (as you say in your contribution 163), but the response of a few French citizens.

 There was a context: these incidents were happening only a short way along the Mediterranean coast from the place where 95 people had died just a few days before. And the incidents were initiated by individual maires not by the state. The French state eventually ended them.

[Sebastian Toe]

If that is liberalism....

its not.

there is something wrong.

....time to move along to take your next pop at the 'west'. 

[ippy]

Sriram, it wasn't the French government that set up this silly Burkini idea it was whatever's the French equivalent of a local council is that decided to make this a local by law.

By the way I note you still haven't managed to get your head around secularism and what in fact it's all about; you have exposed your ignorance of the secular way in your posts several times, have a read up about secularism, it'll stop you from keeping on putting your foot in it.

One of the aims of secularism is to protect every bodies right to hold whatever religious belief they want without any kind of persecution, there's a lot more to it than that but you give the impression that you think secularism's aim is to persecute religions, why?   

ippy

[Nearly Sane]

Just to point out for Sriram's benefit, that I have been called a Muslim loving liberal elsewhere for supporting the right to wear the burkini. The balance of freedoms has a long and interesting history and there is much good writing on it. Taking these incidents as representative of the political philosophy is extremely simplistic. Taking it as representative of all French people a lazy generalisation. Taking it as an act of the French govt plain wrong.

[Brownie]

NS:   ....I have been called a Muslim loving liberal elsewhere...

Join the club NS. 
We are in good company, Barack Obama has also been so called.

Agree with the rest of your post too.

[ippy]

Just to point out for Sriram's benefit, that I have been called a Muslim loving liberal elsewhere for supporting the right to wear the burkini. The balance of freedoms has a long and interesting history and there is much good writing on it. Taking these incidents as representative of the political philosophy is extremely simplistic. Taking it as representative of all French people a lazy generalisation. Taking it as an act of the French govt plain wrong.

I agree with you N S.

ippy

[Harrowby Hall]

I support the wearing of the burkini by people who want to wear it just as I support the right to wear nothing at all - if that is what they choose.

I do, however, have some unhappiness about the burkha (but whole heartedly support the right of people to wear it) and that is that, however its wearers may justify wearing it today, it had its origin - long before Islam - in the oppression, subjugation and ownership of women by men.

Did I read somewhere about an increase in the incidence of rickets? People with naturally dark skin find it less easy to synthesise Vitamin D and the cultural practice of wearing enveloping clothes make the process more difficult. (As also does using Factor 20 sun cream for people with pale skins.)

[trippymonkey]

HH EXCELLENT points - these people that cover up so much of skin WILL suffer in the end.

We really should point out AGAIN how women have been kept 'in check' for many centuries & this is the modern version - the NIQAB or FULL face covering. Even a pet dog sees the light ?!!?!?

I have a very reliable english translation of The Quran from an 'approved by Muslims' author & I don't recall much more than  'dress modestly' ie 'Don't expose all your feminine flesh cos a man is WEAK !!! FACT !!!

Nick