Brexit ground truth

[Bubbles]

Good news 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37274279

There is also some more cheery news about the construction industry in another article ( see bottom)

[BashfulAnthony]

What ever the arguments, there  can be no question of a second referendum.  It was a democratic vote, and to try and overturn it would be totally un-democratic.  Once the hysteria dies down, and we get on with our new independence, I have no doubt that this talented and vigorous country will be the better.

[Aruntraveller]

It was a democratic vote, and to try and overturn it would be totally un-democratic.

Why?

We regularly overturn democratic votes with General and local elections. Why is this different and why would it be undemocratic?

[jeremyp]

It was a democratic vote, and to try and overturn it would be totally un-democratic.

Do you realise that this particular democratic vote overturned a previous democratic vote?

Circumstances change, democratic votes are not set in stone.

[floo]

Do you realise that this particular democratic vote overturned a previous democratic vote?

Circumstances change, democratic votes are not set in stone.

Exactly. It would be interesting to see if another democratic vote would overturn the BREXIT one.

[BashfulAnthony]

Do you realise that this particular democratic vote overturned a previous democratic vote?

Circumstances change, democratic votes are not set in stone.

The previous democratic vote was decades ago, and the EU is a vastly different beast now, and not the organisation that we voted for originally. 
 General and local elections are set-pieces and are the very essence of democracy.   To call for a second Referendum, only days after the first, is just sore losers saying, "I don't like it, let's do it again."

[jeremyp]

The previous democratic vote was decades ago, and the EU is a vastly different beast now, and not the organisation that we voted for originally.

As I said: circumstances change.
 

General and local elections are set-pieces and are the very essence of democracy.   To call for a second Referendum, only days after the first, is just sore losers saying, "I don't like it, let's do it again."

But very few people are doing that. If there was significant evidence that the vote would go differently if run again (that evidence does not exist yet), why shouldn't we have another vote.

Or if the government negotiates a deal for Brexit shouldn't we have the choice to accept it or stay in?

[jeremyp]

Let's be honest, if the vote had gone the other way, the Brexiters would not have thrown up their hands and said "that's it, we lose", they would redouble their efforts and try to get a rerun.

The hypocrisy of the Brexiters is amazing.

[BashfulAnthony]

Let's be honest, if the vote had gone the other way, the Brexiters would not have thrown up their hands and said "that's it, we lose", they would redouble their efforts and try to get a rerun.

The hypocrisy of the Brexiters is amazing.

On what evidence do you say that Brexiters would not have accepted a democratic result?  It is merely your, unverifiable, opinion.  To label 17,000,000 voters as hypocrites simply because you disagreed with the result is a non-starter

[floo]

Let's be honest, if the vote had gone the other way, the Brexiters would not have thrown up their hands and said "that's it, we lose", they would redouble their efforts and try to get a rerun.

The hypocrisy of the Brexiters is amazing.

Agreed.

[Aruntraveller]

On what evidence do you say that Brexiters would not have accepted a democratic result?  It is merely your, unverifiable, opinion.  To label 17,000,000 voters as hypocrites simply because you disagreed with the result is a non-starter

Well I wouldn't label all of them as that but Mr Farage did say that if it had been 52-48 the other way round that it would have been unfinished business.

I still do not see how you can hold to the position that it would be undemocratic. It would be a tedious moment in our history to go through all that again - but not in any sense undemocratic - particularly if circumstances were to deteriorate and given the lies told by the Brexit side.

｣350 million to the NHS anyone?  Points based immigration system?

[BashfulAnthony]

Agreed.

Why?

I didn't agree with the result of the last General Election: won by the Tories with 33% of the vote, and only25% of those eligible to vote.  I will wait until the next Election, in 2020, and decide then how to vote.  I am not calling for an Election now, merely because I didn't agree with the outcome.  This country is the home of democracy and we stick by the rules of democracy.  It is as simple as that, and the former Remain campaigners should get real and accept that.

[BashfulAnthony]

Well I wouldn't label all of them as that but Mr Farage did say that if it had been 52-48 the other way round that it would have been unfinished business.

I still do not see how you can hold to the position that it would be undemocratic. It would be a tedious moment in our history to go through all that again - but not in any sense undemocratic - particularly if circumstances were to deteriorate and given the lies told by the Brexit side.

｣350 million to the NHS anyone?  Points based immigration system?

Trent, did you then agree with all the scare-mongering of the Remain Campaign, led by the unctuous pair, Cameron and Osborne?

[floo]

Hopefully the PM will be able to make the best of a bad job and cobble something together which doesn't damage the UK too much.

If that insane guy Trump wins the US presidential election, Europe, including the UK, would need to be united against the evil his presidency is likely to create.

[jeremyp]

On what evidence do you say that Brexiters would not have accepted a democratic result?

Nigel Farage explicitly said so back in May. There was also a petition going round that said the vote should be rerun if it was less definite than 60/40 or something like that - it was started by a Brexiter.

To label 17,000,000 voters as hypocrites simply because you disagreed with the result is a non-starter

By Brexiter I mean the people leading the campaign, not the poor gullible saps who swallowed their lies.

[Aruntraveller]

Why?

I didn't agree with the result of the last General Election: won by the Tories with 33% of the vote, and only25% of those eligible to vote.  I will wait until the next Election, in 2020, and decide then how to vote.  I am not calling for an Election now, merely because I didn't agree with the outcome.  This country is the home of democracy and we stick by the rules of democracy.  It is as simple as that, and the former Remain campaigners should get real and accept that.

OK so can we have another referendum in 5 years?

Or more seriously we have a government based on democratic representation - why was this abandoned in the case of the EU? It was abandoned because Hameron was more concerned with his own future as PM rather than with the things that would be in the best interest of the country.

Referenda are not part of our usual democratic process and they are, I'm afraid, inimical to it.

[BashfulAnthony]

Nigel Farage explicitly said so back in May. There was also a petition going round that said the vote should be rerun if it was less definite than 60/40 or something like that - it was started by a Brexiter.
By Brexiter I mean the people leading the campaign, not the poor gullible saps who swallowed their lies.

First of all, jeremy, Farage could only have been voicing a personal opinion, since he was not the Brexit Campaign leader.  I think it uncharitable to label 17,000,000 people as "gullible saps."  The Brexit voters encompassed all kinds, including a very great many people of high intellect and perspicacity.

[Aruntraveller]

Trent, did you then agree with all the scare-mongering of the Remain Campaign, led by the unctuous pair, Cameron and Osborne?

No I didn't. I posted on here at the time that they were over exaggerating the risks. There are still risks as we will find out - but I do not think they were correct in their doom laded prophecies. But it is still going to be very painful for many of us. We could have avoided that.

[jeremyp]

First of all, jeremy, Farage could only have been voicing a personal opinion, since he was not the Brexit Campaign leader.

He was one of the leading Brexiteers.

I think it uncharitable to label 17,000,000 people as "gullible saps."  The Brexit voters encompassed all kinds, including a very great many people of high intellect and perspicacity.

They were all taken in by the Brexit lies and we will all be paying for it unless we can find a way to ignore the result.

[BeRational]

No I didn't. I posted on here at the time that they were over exaggerating the risks. There are still risks as we will find out - but I do not think they were correct in their doom laded prophecies. But it is still going to be very painful for many of us. We could have avoided that.

I agree.

I think a lot of people are saying it is not as bad as we thought, and it looks fine.

They have not taken into consideration that we are still IN the EU.

[BashfulAnthony]

He was one of the leading Brexiteers.
They were all taken in by the Brexit lies and we will all be paying for it unless we can find a way to ignore the result.

Farage was not a Campaign leader, and as such was voicing one man's opinion, no more.  There is no evidence to suggest that we will "pay" for the result.  Such a comment is merely an extension of the appalling scare-mongering of the Remainers.

[jeremyp]

I agree.

I think a lot of people are saying it is not as bad as we thought, and it looks fine.

They have not taken into consideration that we are still IN the EU.

Yes, I think the "doom and gloom" predictions of the Remain campaign are going to come true but there is no point in claiming everything is all right now because we haven't even started the negotiating never mind actually left.

[BeRational]

Farage was not a Campaign leader, and as such was voicing one man's opinion, no more.  There is no evidence to suggest that we will "pay" for the result.  Such a comment is merely an extension of the appalling scare-mongering of the Remainers.

We do not yet have a deal to trade with the EU.

I suspect it will cost us.

[jeremyp]

Farage was not a Campaign leader

I don't give a fuck about your hair splitting. He was a leading Brexiteer.

There is no evidence to suggest that we will "pay" for the result.

One poster here has already had to terminate the contracts ofd several coworkers due to Brexit.

We will be paying for it. Don't kid yourself it's all going to be fine.

[BashfulAnthony]

We do not yet have a deal to trade with the EU.

I suspect it will cost us.

It may, it may not.  there is also a very large market available to us in the rest of the world.  The whole point od Brexit was to rid us of the constraints of the failing EU.

The Polish Finance Minister was interviewed on BBC News 24 today, and blindly stated that Poland would not accept anymore migrants, and if forced to do so would consider leaving the EU.  Greece, though out of the headlines currently, continues to be in a terrifying position.  Germany is moving notably to the Right, mainly due to Merkel's migrant stance.  Italy and Portugal are in a  parlous financial condition, etc.  Who, in all conscience would want to be tied to such a failing project?