Author Topic: On-going Junior Doctors' strike programme  (Read 6739 times)

Nearly Sane

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Re: On-going Junior Doctors' strike programme
« Reply #25 on: September 02, 2016, 08:46:53 PM »
Complicated situation and Jeremy's chums are making a bad situation worse - but that's getting way off topic.
yep, only the workers make things bad, the govt and management, all innocent

L.A.

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Re: On-going Junior Doctors' strike programme
« Reply #26 on: September 02, 2016, 08:48:50 PM »
why is is then that yoy trued to claim one side did think that, and that their opposition to the govts policy was based on that view?

I don't understand what you are saying NS. If you want to re-phrase it I'll have a look tomorrow. I'm going offline now.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: On-going Junior Doctors' strike programme
« Reply #27 on: September 02, 2016, 08:57:35 PM »
why is is then that yoy trued to claim one side did think that, and that their opposition to the govts policy was based on that view?
in the post I was replying to you tried to use the idea that the NHS not being perfect now seems to mean that those who might not support a move to privatisation are some how supporting it by opposing it by saying the current system doesn't work perfectly

Udayana

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Re: On-going Junior Doctors' strike programme
« Reply #28 on: September 02, 2016, 09:29:45 PM »
hmm... they should try after works drinks. Everything seems to work fine after a couple :)
Ah, but I was so much older then ... I'm younger than that now

Jack Knave

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Re: On-going Junior Doctors' strike programme
« Reply #29 on: September 03, 2016, 07:21:38 PM »
And Nigel supported an American style health service, until he thought it wasn't gating votes and UKIP, well keep guessing
No, there are insurance services in the EU member states which work fairly ok, that is what he reluctantly referred to.

Jack Knave

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Re: On-going Junior Doctors' strike programme
« Reply #30 on: September 03, 2016, 07:28:04 PM »
If the government are indeed trying to privatise the NHS, the junior doctors are aiding and abetting them by making it clear to everyone that the current system doesn't work.
And it doesn't work because the government is running it down. They are the ones in charge and so the public should blame them. What the BMA have failed to do is adequately and forcefully is convey that the NHS is being run down and HCunts proposals are just another step in this process.

Jack Knave

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Re: On-going Junior Doctors' strike programme
« Reply #31 on: September 03, 2016, 07:35:06 PM »
Maybe or (imo) maybe not. However either way this doesn't tell us what is wrong with the proposed contract or provide any reason for a strike.

ETA: Just been listening to Any Questions .. and seems fairly clear that none of the panel have a clue either.
As I have said in other posts the thing wrong with the proposed contract is that it is there to run the NHS down so it can be privatised. Sadly the BMA have made a pigs ear of the issue hence this saying its ok and then back tracking on this.

L.A.

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Re: On-going Junior Doctors' strike programme
« Reply #32 on: September 03, 2016, 11:15:33 PM »
in the post I was replying to you tried to use the idea that the NHS not being perfect now seems to mean that those who might not support a move to privatisation are some how supporting it by opposing it by saying the current system doesn't work perfectly

The NHS quite clearly isn't perfect (though I would be the first to admits that parts are extremely good). There are massive changes going on, operations that might have required a week or more admission are now completed in day surgery  (so closing wards is not necessarily bad news), but the ageing population has greatly increased the demands.

A huge leviathan like the NHS is always going to be a nightmare to administrate and there are always going to be strongly opposing opinions on how to manage change. Technology can bring solutions to some of these problems but government run institutions tend not to be great places for innovation so there is a good case for using private companies in some areas.

It's pretty clear that simply 'throwing money' at the problem won't work - the NHS is a bottomless pit - change is essential, but change is generally opposed by those in a large institution.

The Secretary of State for Health has been trying to introduce changes that should mean more NHS facilities would be available days a week. This would produce a number of advantages both in terms of treatment availability and better utilisation of resources; and after negotiations, strikes then a supposed agreement - the deal has been rejected and more industrial action promised.



OK that's my assessment of where we are.

Many (including myself) would consider that the doctors are now being totally unreasonable. From the governments perspective there will be other options. For example, a patient fee would 'pay-off' the doctors and they would get the blame., or maybe the same goal could be achieved by greater use of private companies.
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Udayana

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Re: On-going Junior Doctors' strike programme
« Reply #33 on: September 04, 2016, 12:00:35 PM »
As I have said in other posts the thing wrong with the proposed contract is that it is there to run the NHS down so it can be privatised. Sadly the BMA have made a pigs ear of the issue hence this saying its ok and then back tracking on this.
Well - which parts of it are there to "run the NHS down". And if the government decides to run the NHS down, why should the doctors be striking over it? Surely they would earn more, and with reduced working times, in a privatised system?
Ah, but I was so much older then ... I'm younger than that now

Hope

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Re: On-going Junior Doctors' strike programme
« Reply #34 on: September 04, 2016, 07:59:27 PM »
Everything the government is doing is forcing the NHS to go fully private like the states - hence many Tories support TTIP. This needs to be resisted with all the force possible. The NHS is being run down so that the people scream for it to be fixed and it will be fixed by the private sector. This is what happened with our other services; they got starved, but the private sector hasn't solved anything, if anything they have made things worse.
And I understand that TTIP is a dead duck.  http://ind.pn/2bs23XZ
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Hope

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Re: On-going Junior Doctors' strike programme
« Reply #35 on: September 04, 2016, 08:04:29 PM »
And it doesn't work because the government is running it down. They are the ones in charge and so the public should blame them. What the BMA have failed to do is adequately and forcefully is convey that the NHS is being run down and HCunts proposals are just another step in this process.
Oddly enough, JK, both the BMA and the leaders of the junior doctors were involved in the negotiations that ended in the latest, now rejected, proposals.  Interestingly, the junior doctors have used the strike vote that covered the old, now amended contract to call this one.
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Harrowby Hall

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Re: On-going Junior Doctors' strike programme
« Reply #36 on: September 05, 2016, 09:17:28 AM »
And I understand that TTIP is a dead duck.  http://ind.pn/2bs23XZ

And if you read the article, Hope, you will realise that it is about the trade relationship between the USA and the EU. The EU is strong enough and big enough to stand up to the USA,

Should Brexit actually occur, the UK (or what is left of it) will be looking to make trade deals. A special version of TTIP may be all that is available from the USA,

Lambs to the slaughter doesn't even begin to describe it.
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Jack Knave

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Re: On-going Junior Doctors' strike programme
« Reply #37 on: September 05, 2016, 04:53:55 PM »
Well - which parts of it are there to "run the NHS down".
That doesn't make sense...?

Quote
And if the government decides to run the NHS down, why should the doctors be striking over it? Surely they would earn more, and with reduced working times, in a privatised system?
You'd have to ask them that but it does seem that many doctors, not just junior ones are concerned about the way NHS policy has gone over the decades.

Jack Knave

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Re: On-going Junior Doctors' strike programme
« Reply #38 on: September 05, 2016, 04:57:56 PM »
And I understand that TTIP is a dead duck.  http://ind.pn/2bs23XZ
At the G20 Obama has said he is still wanting to negotiate on it. It may be so that it looks dead but perhaps it just smells funny.

Jack Knave

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Re: On-going Junior Doctors' strike programme
« Reply #39 on: September 05, 2016, 05:04:59 PM »
Oddly enough, JK, both the BMA and the leaders of the junior doctors were involved in the negotiations that ended in the latest, now rejected, proposals.  Interestingly, the junior doctors have used the strike vote that covered the old, now amended contract to call this one.
I have said that they have made a bit of a pigs ear of all this. That doesn't make them wrong just a little uncoordinated.

Nearly Sane

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Re: On-going Junior Doctors' strike programme
« Reply #40 on: September 05, 2016, 05:07:28 PM »
Oddly enough, JK, both the BMA and the leaders of the junior doctors were involved in the negotiations that ended in the latest, now rejected, proposals.  Interestingly, the junior doctors have used the strike vote that covered the old, now amended contract to call this one.
partly true, they have used strike vote in conjunction with the vote to reject the contract

Jack Knave

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Re: On-going Junior Doctors' strike programme
« Reply #41 on: September 05, 2016, 05:08:13 PM »
And if you read the article, Hope, you will realise that it is about the trade relationship between the USA and the EU. The EU is strong enough and big enough to stand up to the USA,

Should Brexit actually occur, the UK (or what is left of it) will be looking to make trade deals. A special version of TTIP may be all that is available from the USA,

Lambs to the slaughter doesn't even begin to describe it.
We already trade with the US to the tune of about £60 billion. You don't need a trade deal to trade.

floo

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Re: On-going Junior Doctors' strike programme
« Reply #42 on: September 05, 2016, 05:10:15 PM »
Next week's strike has been called off, but the following months are still on.

Udayana

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Re: On-going Junior Doctors' strike programme
« Reply #43 on: September 05, 2016, 05:24:09 PM »
Quote
Well - which parts of it are there to "run the NHS down".
That doesn't make sense...?

Which details (terms, clauses, conditions, pay scales, hours etc) specified in the new contract have been designed  to "run down the NHS"?

My feeling is that some hospitals were "run down" under the old contract.
Ah, but I was so much older then ... I'm younger than that now

BashfulAnthony

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Re: On-going Junior Doctors' strike programme
« Reply #44 on: September 05, 2016, 05:58:03 PM »
If the hospitals can run efficiently, and above all safely, without the junior doctors for five days in a row, perhaps they are not so vital as they think. Just a thought.
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Jack Knave

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Re: On-going Junior Doctors' strike programme
« Reply #45 on: September 05, 2016, 06:19:42 PM »
That doesn't make sense...?


Which details (terms, clauses, conditions, pay scales, hours etc) specified in the new contract have been designed  to "run down the NHS"?

My feeling is that some hospitals were "run down" under the old contract.
Yes, it has been a long term project as part of neo-Liberalism. This junior doctors dispute is just one of many nails in the NHS coffin.

Jack Knave

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Re: On-going Junior Doctors' strike programme
« Reply #46 on: September 05, 2016, 06:24:48 PM »
If the hospitals can run efficiently, and above all safely, without the junior doctors for five days in a row, perhaps they are not so vital as they think. Just a thought.
They don't all stop working, its more of a go slow or minimal service; minimal being relative here i.e. probably less than sufficient.

Rather this than a this level of service all year round from Hunt and co.

BashfulAnthony

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Re: On-going Junior Doctors' strike programme
« Reply #47 on: September 05, 2016, 06:36:44 PM »

I have supported the junior doctors all along - I owe them much.  I do fear that five-day strikes are going to test the patience of many who otherwise support them. It would only take one tragic death  due to their action to bring huge approbation on them. 
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Nearly Sane

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Re: On-going Junior Doctors' strike programme
« Reply #48 on: September 05, 2016, 06:39:31 PM »
I have supported the junior doctors all along - I owe them much.  I do fear that five-day strikes are going to test the patience of many who otherwise support them. It would only take one tragic death  due to their action to bring huge approbation on them.
why would essentially in that sense a 5 day strike be different to a one minute strike?

BashfulAnthony

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Re: On-going Junior Doctors' strike programme
« Reply #49 on: September 05, 2016, 06:41:23 PM »
I support the junior doctors: I owe them much.  I fear, however, that they are know walking a tightrope
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It is my commandment that you love one another."