The power of prayer

[jeremyp]

If so why would you go to the doctor about something which had resolved itself, certainly in terms of symptoms and hadn't been giving you any problem for weeks.

Also, how would the doctor have been able to diagnose the disease if Alan was no longer displaying symptoms?

[Nearly Sane]

Also, how would the doctor have been able to diagnose the disease if Alan was no longer displaying symptoms?

Alan isn't claiming a cure more a sort of holiday pass so he could have a nice time while children died in pain

[floo]

I suspect that for some praying has a placebo effect helping the body's own healing mechanisms to kick in.

[ProfessorDavey]

Also, how would the doctor have been able to diagnose the disease if Alan was no longer displaying symptoms?

I asked him that, but he hasn't confirmed whether the symptoms went away entirely over the 2 week holiday period or were merely markedly reduced.

Nonetheless he might have explained to his doctor the earlier symptoms which would have flagged up the possibility of a urinary tract infection. That said if I hadn't had symptoms for 2 weeks I doubt I would think it worth worrying the doctor at all.

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

I recall these events as they happened without exaggeration or fabrication.

It was Tuesday July 26th.  My wife, daughter and I were preparing to embark on a two week holiday in Skiathos, Greece.  We were to be picked up at 1:30am in a taxi to travel to Manchester airport for an early morning flight.

A few days before, I had started to experience some pain when passing urine.  It had happened before, but passed off in a day or two, but this time it did not pass off.  It was getting more painful, more urgent and more frequent.  At 11pm I started passing blood.  I had to face the reality that I was in no condition to travel and would have to cancel the holiday and seek urgent medical attention.  Then ...

Words come into my head saying "Just lie down and pray the Rosary".  I have nothing to lose, so I lay on the bed and start silently reciting the sorrowful mysteries of the Holy Rosary.  As I pray, all the pain and discomfort drift away and I am covered with a blanket of reassurance telling me that all will be well.  As I start on the glorious mysteries, I am so comfortable that I have to make an effort to keep awake.  While I am praying, my wife joins me for a lie down, oblivious of the drama I have experienced.  On finishing the Glorious mysteries, I drift off to a peaceful sleep.  I wake up at 1am in time to prepare for the taxi.  I take the two and a half hour taxi ride to Manchester without a single toilet stop.  Just two hours earlier I had been weeing blood every five minutes.  During the three and a half hour flight I make just one toilet trip, free from pain and blood and I look forward to what turns out to be a wonderful holiday.

So I humbly give thanks and praise to God for this amazing answer to prayer.

People will inevitably ask the question : "Why does God answer my prayers and not other people's?"  All I can say is that whenever I put my faith and trust in God, prayers do get answered.  I am convinced that faith is the key which unlocks the power of prayer.

postscript:  When we arrived in Greece I told my wife of the drama I experienced.  She was shocked and amazed, and made me promise to see a doctor when we returned home.  The doctor confirmed that I had a urinary tract infection, and I was given a course of antibiotics to clear it up, but she offered no explanation for the two week respite which allowed me to enjoy our holiday.

I recall these events as they happened without exaggeration or fabrication.

A couple of weeks ago I fell off my bike and mildly twisted my ankle. Unfortunately I was just about to go to France for my annual holiday, so I banged two coconut shells together, burnt some Rosemary leaves and chanted the name of the great volcano god Hephaestus 43 tines without blinking.

And guess what? Yup, after just two weeks my ankle felt better!

People will inevitably ask the question : "Why does Hephaestus answer my prayers and not other people's?"  All I can say is that whenever I put my faith and trust in him, prayers do get answered.  I am convinced that faith is the key which unlocks the power of prayer.

Luckily as both you AB and I have dispensed entirely with even the most rudimentary tests for our respective claims - double blind trials, for example - our claims are precisely as (in)valid as each other.   


 

[Enki]

I recall these events as they happened without exaggeration or fabrication.

Several years ago, I began to get very painful abdominal pains after passing urine. At times, the accompanying stinging sensation  made me pass water very frequently. This lasted for some weeks before eventually I went to the doctor.  After going to the doctor, I had an ultra sound scan on my bladder area, but nothing was found. Soon afterwards, I had agreed to go on a special dancing day at the Bridlington Spa, but, the night before, the pain was so discomforting that I told my wife, I didn't think I would make it.  Just before I went to bed, I, yet again, went to the toilet. Strangely enough, this time, however, I felt a sudden very sharp pain and realised I had passed something. Looking in the toilet pan I could see the offending object, which I retrieved. The next morning, I felt no pain, went dancing, had an excellent time and had no ill effects.

I actually took the object to the doctors(it was brownish, hard, crystalline, and about 1/3 cm across) who told me immediately that I had passed a bladder stone. Since then I have had no particular bladder problems, and certainly no pain whatever.

At no time did I pray, or even think about praying.

So, if I go by Alan's way of thinking, I suppose the moral of this story might be: if you want to help your body recover from a bladder problem, it would be advisable not to pray at all.

Actually, what I really think in my case is that praying would have been completely superfluous, even as a placebo effect. Much better for me to have used whatever placebo effect is useful by some other means which I have confidence in. Oh, and of course, it goes without saying, that many ailments absolutely need the help of the Medical profession. 

[bluehillside Retd.]

Prof et al,

If so why would you go to the doctor about something which had resolved itself, certainly in terms of symptoms and hadn't been giving you any problem for weeks.

Just to note that, while sitting in a doctor's waiting room recently, I read the front of a pamphlet that said something like: "Seen blood on your pee? See your doctor, even if it happened only once."

Medical advice is to have it checked out, even if it seems to be a one-off.

[ekim]

Don’t use foolish repetitions or verbosity. God already knows your needs
before you ask. (Matt 6 7:

[Brownie]

That's true enki but people feel as though they need to do something, it's quite natural.  That applies to prayer as well as doing practical stuff.

Regarding Alan, had he been my husband, I would have insisted he see a doctor even if the symptoms had disappeared so don't see it as a big deal.  However these things do sometimes just go away if sufficient water is taken, which doesn't mean the symptoms won't return.  He was quite right to go to the doc, I'm with his wife on that one.  It sounds horrible!

[ekim]

A staunch believer might say that as a result of prayer, it is God guiding Alan's wife in what she says and the doctor's diagnosis and treatment.

[bluehillside Retd.]

ekim,

A staunch believer might say that as a result of prayer, it is God guiding Alan's wife in what she says and the doctor's diagnosis and treatment.

A staunch believer in anything might say that the object of his belief was causal when an outcome is unexpected and desired. The "believer's" problem though is to resolve the basic issues of bad thinking on which his attribution rests. 

Alan's OP for example is a good example of that bad thinking. 

[Enki]

That's true enki but people feel as though they need to do something, it's quite natural.  That applies to prayer as well as doing practical stuff.

Regarding Alan, had he been my husband, I would have insisted he see a doctor even if the symptoms had disappeared so don't see it as a big deal.  However these things do sometimes just go away if sufficient water is taken, which doesn't mean the symptoms won't return.  He was quite right to go to the doc, I'm with his wife on that one.  It sounds horrible!

Of course, and often this is quite harmless(apart from your pocket), such as using magnetic therapy for athritic pain, or, as I know one lady who swore that her arthritis was somewhat improved by rubbing in WD 40 on the offending part. As long as the placebo element kicks in, then no real problem. However, The key to what you are saying is 'as well as doing the practical stuff', by which I hope you mean the stuff that has been shown evidentially to work. And I would agree with you. If a person where to rely purely on the placebo effect of whatever floats their boat, and eschew a practical medical response when that is what is needed, then this could lead to a dangerous situation as regards their health.

[Alan Burns]

AB,

I recall these events as they happened without exaggeration or fabrication.

A couple of weeks ago I fell off my bike and mildly twisted my ankle. Unfortunately I was just about to go to France for my annual holiday, so I banged two coconut shells together, burnt some Rosemary leaves and chanted the name of the great volcano god Hephaestus 43 tines without blinking.

And guess what? Yup, after just two weeks my ankle felt better!

People will inevitably ask the question : "Why does Hephaestus answer my prayers and not other people's?"  All I can say is that whenever I put my faith and trust in him, prayers do get answered.  I am convinced that faith is the key which unlocks the power of prayer.

Luckily as both you AB and I have dispensed entirely with even the most rudimentary tests for our respective claims - double blind trials, for example - our claims are precisely as (in)valid as each other.   
 

It is truly amazing what your deterministic emergent properties can come up with.

But the reality is the sadness in realising that your soul is inventing these imaginary scenarios to try to prove its own non existence.

[Nearly Sane]

It is truly amazing what your deterministic emergent properties can come up with.

But the reality is the sadness in realising that your soul is inventing these imaginary scenarios to try to prove its own non existence.

while your god  chooses to have children die in excruciating  pain throughout the time of your nice holiday.

[Gordon]

But the reality is the sadness in realising that your soul is inventing these imaginary scenarios to try to prove its own non existence.

This has to be the winner of the daftest sentence of the year award (even though it is still September).

[Alan Burns]

while your god  chooses to have children die in excruciating  pain throughout the time of your nice holiday.

Every human being will suffer pain and sadness in their lives.  The fact that we are able to recognise it as something undesirable gives us the hope that there is a world without pain and sadness, and Jesus has opened up a way for our souls to reach this true home which we all yearn for.

[Nearly Sane]

Every human being will suffer pain and sadness in their lives.  The fact that we are able to recognise it as something undesirable gives us the hope that there is a world without pain and sadness, and Jesus has opened up a way for our souls to reach this true home which we all yearn for.

and now you rejoice in the children dying in excrutusting pain. Also I don't yearn for this true home thing.

[ippy]

Every human being will suffer pain and sadness in their lives.  The fact that we are able to recognise it as something undesirable gives us the hope that there is a world without pain and sadness, and Jesus has opened up a way for our souls to reach this true home which we all yearn for.

Yes Alan, now take your pills, then go and have good lay down; oh yes, don't forget to take your comfort blanket with you too.

ippy   

[Gordon]

Every human being will suffer pain and sadness in their lives.  The fact that we are able to recognise it as something undesirable gives us the hope that there is a world without pain and sadness

It doesn't actually engender hope: it just makes us recognise that for some pain and sadness is their lot in life, such as kids with bone cancer - in relation to whom your platitudes are unpleasantly perverse.

and Jesus has opened up a way for our souls to reach this true home which we all yearn for.

Which is as comforting as being advised that Noddy lives in Toytown.

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

It is truly amazing what your deterministic emergent properties can come up with.

They're not mine, but yes - emergent properties are amazing: a thousand years of so of the same types of merchants in the same part of Florence; the astonishing complexity and apparent sophistication of ant colonies; consciousness and the illusion of "free" will - remarkable phenomena all.   

But the reality is the sadness in realising that your soul is inventing these imaginary scenarios to try to prove its own non existence.

Well, that may be your "reality" but it's also as convoluted a piece of casuistry as I've heard in a long time. Perhaps if you made some effort to demonstrate this supposed "soul" to begin with you might at least have a premise for your assertion that's worth considering?

Notwithstanding, any chance of you tackling the long lost of bad thought processes on which your OP rests?

Ta. 

[bluehillside Retd.]

jeremyp,

Also, how would the doctor have been able to diagnose the disease if Alan was no longer displaying symptoms?

By referring him to a specialist who would conduct further investigations so as to eliminate (or not) the chance of a more serious complaint.   

[Alan Burns]

Also, how would the doctor have been able to diagnose the disease if Alan was no longer displaying symptoms?

Just a urine test was enough to confirm that it was a UTI.

[Alan Burns]

... emergent properties are amazing: a thousand years of so of the same types of merchants in the same part of Florence; the astonishing complexity and apparent sophistication of ant colonies; consciousness and the illusion of "free" will - remarkable phenomena all.   

But nothing actually emerges in the physical sense.  It could be more accurately described as "perceived properties".  My conscious awareness is what facilitates the perception of these properties in other phenomena.

[torridon]

But nothing actually emerges in the physical sense.  It could be more accurately described as "perceived properties".  My conscious awareness is what facilitates the perception of these properties in other phenomena.

Not so, termites were busy building cathedral mounds, a classic example of physical emergence, long before humans evolved to perceive them and wonder at the process.

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

But nothing actually emerges in the physical sense.  It could be more accurately described as "perceived properties".  My conscious awareness is what facilitates the perception of these properties in other phenomena.

Torridon has got there before me, but both physical structures (termite mounds, city neighbourhoods etc) and behaviours (ants "farming" other insects etc) are emergent "properties" that exist whether or not you happen to be there to observe them.