The power of prayer

[jeremyp]

Every human being will suffer pain and sadness in their lives.

Why does your god think it is more important for you to have a pain free holiday than for millions of children to live a pain free life?

Your god is a monster. It's fortunate he doesn't really exist.

[torridon]

But the concept of air conditioning only exists in the conscious awareness of human beings.  Take away our conscious awareness and these properties cease to exist.  Ultimately all that exists outside of conscious awareness is atomic particles, radiation and space.

Nonsense.

Do you really think that the 'air-conditioning' property of termite mounds ceases when humans aren't looking ? These mounds were doing this long before humans discovered them.

[Alan Burns]

Nonsense.

Do you really think that the 'air-conditioning' property of termite mounds ceases when humans aren't looking ? These mounds were doing this long before humans discovered them.

What you perceive and label as "air conditioning" is just atomic particles reacting to events.  The labelling and human perception will of course have no effect on the behaviour of these particles.   The entire universe contains particles reacting to events.  The process of perceiving these events and labelling them only exists in human perception, as does the concept of emergent properties.

[torridon]

What you perceive and label as "air conditioning" is just atomic particles reacting to events.  The labelling and human perception will of course have no effect on the behaviour of these particles.   The entire universe contains particles reacting to events.  The process of perceiving these events and labelling them only exists in human perception, as does the concept of emergent properties.

There are many examples of emergence throughout nature and they don't depend on human perception or labelling to function.  Termites did not have to wait for biologists to come along and study them and put a name on the process for it to exist.  'Emergence' simply refers to systems that display different properties at higher levels of organisation to the properties of their simpler constituent parts.  It does not depend on external perception.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergence

[ekim]

A staunch atheist would then ask why God doesn't guide rapists away from committing rape, to which the staunch believer's normal reply is that God doesn't interfere with Free Will. The staunch atheist would then point ut that guiding Alan's wife and doctors in the way the staunch believer suggests is a violation of their Free Will.

Another staunch believer might say that God guides by revealing to his prophets ways to overcome 'sins of the flesh' so that the will is free from such compulsions and so that love and compassion may express itself freely as perhaps it does in the case of the wife or doctor.

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

What you perceive and label as "air conditioning" is just atomic particles reacting to events.  The labelling and human perception will of course have no effect on the behaviour of these particles.   The entire universe contains particles reacting to events.  The process of perceiving these events and labelling them only exists in human perception, as does the concept of emergent properties.

The "labels" are language, which we need to communicate and exchange ideas. "Termite" and "air" are labels too, but there's no "just" about them - they describe succinctly complex natural phenomena. The fact is that termite mounds are ventilated in a remarkable way that no individual termite could conceive of, yet they exist anyway. Whether you happen to be around to label the phenomenon, it happens nonetheless. Ventilated mound construction is thus an emergent property.

Below is an extract and a link the shows you how remarkable they are:

"The mechanism the researchers identified relies, in large measure, on the structure of the mounds.

The mounds are built around large central “chimneys” that reach from gallery ― the underground vault where the bulk of the colony lives ― to the top of the mound. While the interior of the mound features large structural walls, the exterior is far thinner, with walls that, while impermeable to wind, allow for the exchange of gases.

During the day, Mahadevan explained, as sunlight warms the mound’s outer walls, the air inside warms, causing it to rise.

“What you get is a convection cell,” Mahadevan said. “The warm air can’t move through the walls quickly enough, but it has to go somewhere, and the only possibility is for it to go down into the interior through the central chimney. At night, as the exterior cools, the airflow reverses, and it pulls the air up from the central part of the mound.”

The result, Mahadevan said, is that while CO2 concentrations during the day can reach up to 4 or 5 percent in the center of the mound, airflow at night pulls the gas to the exterior walls, where it can escape by diffusing through the walls.

“But what’s remarkable here is how the termites are using transients. The temperature outside the mound is oscillating, and they have developed a method to harness that to ventilate their mounds.” Mahadevan said."

(http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2015/09/how-termites-ventilate/)

[jeremyp]

Another staunch believer might say that God guides by revealing to his prophets ways to overcome 'sins of the flesh' so that the will is free from such compulsions and so that love and compassion may express itself freely as perhaps it does in the case of the wife or doctor.

And the staunch atheist asks why God can't do something similar to rapists.

[ekim]

....... they have developed a method to harness that to ventilate their mounds.” Mahadevan said."

(http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2015/09/how-termites-ventilate/)

Doesn't that imply that some form of conscious intelligence is involved, albeit at a termite level?

[jeremyp]

Doesn't that imply that some form of conscious intelligence is involved, albeit at a termite level?

No.

[Sebastian Toe]

What you perceive and label as "air conditioning" is just atomic particles reacting to events.  The labelling and human perception will of course have no effect on the behaviour of these particles.   The entire universe contains particles reacting to events.  The process of perceiving these events and labelling them only exists in human perception, as does the concept of emergent properties.

'The process of perceiving these events' is done by your soul, which according to you does not actually reside in this universe IIRC.
Is that correct?

[bluehillside Retd.]

ekim,

Doesn't that imply that some form of conscious intelligence is involved, albeit at a termite level?

No. Inasmuch as termites do have "intelligence", it's vanishingly tiny compared with that needed to design and build a ventilated mound from the outset. That's the point about emergence - complex outcomes come from simple components. 

Cities are often like that by the way. No-one says, "this'll be the street with all the flower shops" yet they tend to appear together anyway. There's a trade though - as a flower shop owner it suits me to have one nearby because together we attract to the area people who want to buy flowers, but on the other hand I might not want it right next door for fear of the competition it provides. Over time an equilibrium is achieved that - viewed top down - looks for all the world as if it had been designed that way, but all that's actually happened is that it's emerged from the bottom up.

[ekim]

And the staunch atheist asks why God can't do something similar to rapists.

... and yet another believer might say that the way is straight and narrow but open to all.  Many are called but few make it because they choose the wider path leading to eternal damnation.

[ekim]

ekim,

No. Inasmuch as termites do have "intelligence", it's vanishingly tiny compared with that needed to design and build a ventilated mound from the outset. That's the point about emergence - complex outcomes come from simple components. 

Cities are often like that by the way. No-one says, "this'll be the street with all the flower shops" yet they tend to appear together anyway. There's a trade though - as a flower shop owner it suits me to have one nearby because together we attract to the area people who want to buy flowers, but on the other hand I might not want it right next door for fear of the competition it provides. Over time an equilibrium is achieved that - viewed top down - looks for all the world as if it had been designed that way, but all that's actually happened is that it's emerged from the bottom up.

So the author was wrong to say they have developed a method for the purpose of ventilating their mounds .....  it was just trial and error choices, over many years, which allowed an appropriate outcome for their communal success?

[Nearly Sane]

So the author was wrong to say they have developed a method for the purpose of ventilating their mounds .....  it was just trial and error choices, over many years, which allowed an appropriate outcome for their communal success?

The author phrased it in such a way that you might read it as that but in context that isn't a valid interpretation. Further the idea that it is trial and error and is then a communal decision doesn't make sense.

[bluehillside Retd.]

skim,

So the author was wrong to say they have developed a method for the purpose of ventilating their mounds .....  it was just trial and error choices, over many years, which allowed an appropriate outcome for their communal success?

Sort of - the trial and error process is part of it but then behaviours become embedded and repeated. When a foraging ant finds food for example and releases a pheromone the following ants read that as "turn right" (or whatever) and the result over time is complex behavioural and physical structures. The termites have "developed" the method for ventilated mounds in one sense, but not in the sense that there's a head termite with a hard hat and a sheaf of plans telling the other termites what to do.

Here's a link to a good radio documentary on the subject you might enjoy:

http://www.radiolab.org/story/91500-emergence/   

[ekim]

BH
Thanks, I'll have a lsiten.

[bluehillside Retd.]

ekim,

Thanks, I'll have a lsiten.

No problem. A warning though: the Radiolab documentaries are generally very good, so you might find yourself listening for (many) more hours than you expect as you explore them!

[torridon]

Doesn't that imply that some form of conscious intelligence is involved, albeit at a termite level?

No, rather it demonstrates how complex phenomena such as 'intelligence' emerge from underlying primitives.  You are an intelligent guy, but none of your neurons are intelligent.

[SusanDoris]

The language can be confusing too, can't it? to say that termites 'have developed' would perhaps be more scientifically described as 'behaviours which were adaptive and enabled the species to survive persisted ... but of course we absolutely need non-convoluted phrases for general use.

that sounds a bit pompous! Not meant to be!

[wigginhall]

'The process of perceiving these events' is done by your soul, which according to you does not actually reside in this universe IIRC.
Is that correct?

That's an interesting point.  Presumably Christians such as AB are compelled to say that the soul is not part of nature, and not part of the universe, but somehow finds it way into the human body or self or whatever.   Well, obviously, this is divine injection at work, God has a large syringe full of soul-juice.   Well, supernatural soul-juice. 

I don't know whether AB would say that perception itself is not part of nature, but here we come back to the usual argument from incredulity - 'I can't see how the brain produces consciousness, therefore God', or the like.

[Bubbles]

If prayer was powerful no child would die 

No innocent baby would come to harm.

If free will triumphs over prayer, it's not that powerful 

[Khatru]

I recall these events as they happened without exaggeration or fabrication.

It was Tuesday July 26th.  My wife, daughter and I were preparing to embark on a two week holiday in Skiathos, Greece.  We were to be picked up at 1:30am in a taxi to travel to Manchester airport for an early morning flight.

A few days before, I had started to experience some pain when passing urine.  It had happened before, but passed off in a day or two, but this time it did not pass off.  It was getting more painful, more urgent and more frequent.  At 11pm I started passing blood.  I had to face the reality that I was in no condition to travel and would have to cancel the holiday and seek urgent medical attention.  Then ...

Words come into my head saying "Just lie down and pray the Rosary".  I have nothing to lose, so I lay on the bed and start silently reciting the sorrowful mysteries of the Holy Rosary.  As I pray, all the pain and discomfort drift away and I am covered with a blanket of reassurance telling me that all will be well.  As I start on the glorious mysteries, I am so comfortable that I have to make an effort to keep awake.  While I am praying, my wife joins me for a lie down, oblivious of the drama I have experienced.  On finishing the Glorious mysteries, I drift off to a peaceful sleep.  I wake up at 1am in time to prepare for the taxi.  I take the two and a half hour taxi ride to Manchester without a single toilet stop.  Just two hours earlier I had been weeing blood every five minutes.  During the three and a half hour flight I make just one toilet trip, free from pain and blood and I look forward to what turns out to be a wonderful holiday.

So I humbly give thanks and praise to God for this amazing answer to prayer.

People will inevitably ask the question : "Why does God answer my prayers and not other people's?"  All I can say is that whenever I put my faith and trust in God, prayers do get answered.  I am convinced that faith is the key which unlocks the power of prayer.

postscript:  When we arrived in Greece I told my wife of the drama I experienced.  She was shocked and amazed, and made me promise to see a doctor when we returned home.  The doctor confirmed that I had a urinary tract infection, and I was given a course of antibiotics to clear it up, but she offered no explanation for the two week respite which allowed me to enjoy our holiday.

Given all that faith out there, why is it that ambulances don't take people to the local church/mosque/temple/synagogue instead of hospital?

[Alan Burns]

There are many examples of emergence throughout nature and they don't depend on human perception or labelling to function.  Termites did not have to wait for biologists to come along and study them and put a name on the process for it to exist.  'Emergence' simply refers to systems that display different properties at higher levels of organisation to the properties of their simpler constituent parts.  It does not depend on external perception.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergence

Outside human perception, everything just exist as simple constituent parts.  Any higher levels of perceived organisation are entirely defined and categorised by the subjective conscious perception of human beings.

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

Outside human perception, everything just exist as simple constituent parts.  Any higher levels of perceived organisation are entirely defined and categorised by the subjective conscious perception of human beings.

Look at the extract I posted for you - various interconnected features have to operate together for the termite mound to work effectively. That's not "simple constituent parts" at all - it's a system.

Moreover, it's a system of which no individual termite could conceive - yet they produce it anyway. You can define and categorise that any way you like but it exists whether or not you do that.

And that's an example of emergence.

Why is it so difficult for you to grasp?     

[jeremyp]

... and yet another believer might say that the way is straight and narrow but open to all.  Many are called but few make it because they choose the wider path leading to eternal damnation.

To which the staunch atheist replies "why did God make the path so stupidly narrow?"