The power of prayer

[Alan Burns]

Your failure to grasp what emergence entails is remarkable for its obtuseness and wilful ignorance of the subject. I've already recommended to you a good book (albeit not "the" good book in your terms) on the subject so why not read it before attempting to critique the subject again?

All the examples of so called emergence I have seen can be replicated with some form of human creativity.  This is because these emergent properties can be entirely defined from basic material elements.

In the case of conscious awareness, you can't claim this to be an emergent property if it can't be replicated in material terms.  You can point to the information contained in the brain cells, but until you can define how these are perceived in material terms it is not feasible to assume that it is an emergent property.

[Alan Burns]

Actually I've got you down as a biological robot, one that is under the delusion that it is a spiritual being.  That makes sense I think, it would account for the predictable nature of your posts.

Joking aside, have a look at this robot :

https://youtu.be/W0_DPi0PmF0

Extraopolating current trends I think it will not be long before robots are so life like they will be indistinguishable from real humans, and we will have to design them differently so we can tell the difference.  And as our artificial intelligence approaches naturally evolved organic intelligence, the whole notion of 'robot' is going to dissolve, it will have outlived its usefulness. We are information beings, the matter from which we are made does not really define us, sooner or later we will upgrade ourselves to more durable materials and the era of organic people that suffer and decay will be over.

We have the ability to mimic the external behaviour of humans, but this does not imply that we can create the internal conscious awareness experienced by humans.

[Sebastian Toe]

In the case of conscious awareness, you can't claim this to be an emergent property if it can't be replicated in material terms. 

Yes you can.

Conscious awareness is an emergent property.

There I just did it.

Much like you claiming that there is a soul somewhere, not residing in the universe, which connects with your material brain cells.
It's really quite easy.

What now?

[torridon]

We have the ability to mimic the external behaviour of humans, but this does not imply that we can create the internal conscious awareness experienced by humans.

It's just a matter of time; whatever has evolved naturally, we reproduce with better materials sooner or later.  There is nothing magic about consciousness, it is a question of information flow within a bounded system and there is no reason to suppose that carbon compounds are the only ones capable of hosting information flows

[ekim]

It's just a matter of time; whatever has evolved naturally, we reproduce with better materials sooner or later.  There is nothing magic about consciousness, it is a question of information flow within a bounded system and there is no reason to suppose that carbon compounds are the only ones capable of hosting information flows

There is information circulating within the bounded system of my computer.  Are you saying that my computer has consciousness?  It is possible to still the mind so that information ceases to flow and still simply remain aware.

[Alan Burns]

It's just a matter of time; whatever has evolved naturally, we reproduce with better materials sooner or later.  There is nothing magic about consciousness, it is a question of information flow within a bounded system and there is no reason to suppose that carbon compounds are the only ones capable of hosting information flows

In addition to the information flow there is the question of a recipient for this information - You.

[jeremyp]

Because I am a spiritual being, not a biological robot.

How do you know?

It seems to me that you don't know but are merely thinking wishfully.

[torridon]

There is information circulating within the bounded system of my computer.  Are you saying that my computer has consciousness?  It is possible to still the mind so that information ceases to flow and still simply remain aware.

My desktop computer has pretty much zero consciousness, as it is not architected with that end in mind; rather it produces specific outputs for specific inputs with minimal effort.  Conscious minds on the other hand have huge information and energy redundancy built in and they process information in ways that are synchronised, homogenised, prioritised, recursive so they are far less good at specific problem solving, but are hugely more adaptable and learnable.  When your laptop starts having mood swings, that would be a good indicator that its consciousness level is approaching that of human.  Oh, hang on a minute ...

[torridon]

In addition to the information flow there is the question of a recipient for this information - You.

That would be the 'me' that disappears every time I go to sleep; in other words, 'I' is a phenomenological product of waking consciousness, rather than a recipient, or beneficiary, of it

[floo]

Supposing, as seems likely, the universe hosts other humanoid creatures, how would that play with those who think god was responsible for creating humans on our planet only?

[Nearly Sane]

Supposing, as seems likely, the universe hosts other humanoid creatures, how would that play with those who think god was responsible for creating humans on our planet only?

how have you calculated the likelihood of other humanoid creatures that leads to say it is likely?


I don't think there are that many people who would be that bothered by this. It would just be seen as another miracle of creation.

[jeremyp]

how have you calculated the likelihood of other humanoid creatures that leads to say it is likely?

If the Universe is infinite, it is a virtual certainty.

[Nearly Sane]

If the Universe is infinite, it is a virtual certainty.

we might be using two different meanings of Universe here. I was reading Floo's comment to refer to the one we are in which is not infinite.

I am not even sure if we move to a concept of some overarching Universe, covering not just this one, but all multiverse concepts that there is any sense of it being infinite.

[jeremyp]

we might be using two different meanings of Universe here. I was reading Floo's comment to refer to the one we are in which is not infinite.

Really? You should publish a paper about it, you might get a Nobel prize.

[Nearly Sane]

Really? You should publish a paper about it, you might get a Nobel prize.

so let me check this you think that in order to allowed the hypothesis that the current universe is infinite we will just ignore all comments from physicists talking about the age of the current Universe?

[jeremyp]

so let me check this you think that in order to allowed the hypothesis that the current universe is infinite we will just ignore all comments from physicists talking about the age of the current Universe?

The Universe is certainly of finite age, but nobody knows if it is finite in extent or not.

http://www.universetoday.com/119553/is-the-universe-finite-or-infinite/

[floo]

how have you calculated the likelihood of other humanoid creatures that leads to say it is likely?


I don't think there are that many people who would be that bothered by this. It would just be seen as another miracle of creation.

Blimey NS, you and my husband would get on like a house on fire. Every statement, I make, however innocuous, he challenges me to provide the evidence!

Of course I don't have any actual evidence there is other humanoid life out there somewhere, but my single brain cell would think it strange if there wasn't!

[Nearly Sane]

The Universe is certainly of finite age, but nobody knows if it is finite in extent or not.

http://www.universetoday.com/119553/is-the-universe-finite-or-infinite/

a universe that is finite in time is not infinite

[jeremyp]

a universe that is finite in time is not infinite

It can be if it is infinite in other dimensions.

Please read the link I posted.

[Nearly Sane]

Blimey NS, you and my husband would get on like a house on fire. Every statement, I make, however innocuous, he challenges me to provide the evidence!

Of course I don't have any actual evidence there is other humanoid life out there somewhere, but my single brain cell would think it strange if there wasn't!

didn't ask for evidence, asked for the method you used to determine probability here. As for you thinking it would be strange if there wasn't humanoid life out there, that is exactly the same approach taken by Alan Burns as regards the existence of a soul.

[Alan Burns]

That would be the 'me' that disappears every time I go to sleep; in other words, 'I' is a phenomenological product of waking consciousness, rather than a recipient, or beneficiary, of it

When the physical senses shut down during sleep, the soul's window into this physical universe will shut too.  And as time is a physical property of this material universe, the soul's perception of time will also shut down during sleep.  There is the question of dreams.  There is certainly brain activity during dreams, but is this a response to stimulation from the soul, or is the soul is just perceiving the activity of brain cells?

[jeremyp]

Another scientist who says we don't know if the Universe is infinite or not.

Interview with Joseph Silk

[Nearly Sane]

It can be if it is infinite in other dimensions.

Please read the link I posted.

I did, and I was going to posit a thought experiment which I thought was going to help but it's convinced me that you are right if we qualify it that in a universe which is infinite in the spatial dimension then all things that can have happened in the time of that universe has existed, are almost certain to have happened multiple times. In a universe with a different time of existence, some things may have happened there that would not be replicated in the other universe.





I think though that in discourse about infinity if the term is not qualified it includes temporal infinity, though I accept that once the qualification is made , you are right.

[jeremyp]

I think though that in discourse about infinity if the term is not qualified it includes temporal infinity, though I accept that once the qualification is made , you are right.

The Universe could also be finite spatially and have a finite age but it could still be infinite in the sense that it will go on forever into the future.

[Nearly Sane]

The Universe could also be finite spatially and have a finite age but it could still be infinite in the sense that it will go on forever into the future.

so in the case of such a universe, then it wouldn't be possible to say that all things that could happen would be happening an infinite number of times concurrently. We could be in a universe where in the time of its existence and given its size that we are the only or indeed first humanoids but that there will be infinite of humanoids in the future of this never ending universe.