The power of prayer

[BeRational]

so in the case of such a universe, then it wouldn't be possible to say that all things that could happen would be happening an infinite number of times concurrently. We could be in a universe where in the time of its existence and given its size that we are the only or indeed first humanoids but that there will be infinite of humanoids in the future of this never ending universe.

Will some be identical to use in every way?

There are only so many combinations of atoms in a given space, so with infinite space some patterns must repeat.

[jeremyp]

so in the case of such a universe, then it wouldn't be possible to say that all things that could happen would be happening an infinite number of times concurrently. We could be in a universe where in the time of its existence and given its size that we are the only or indeed first humanoids but that there will be infinite of humanoids in the future of this never ending universe.

Errr possibly...

Entropy plays a part so that, at some point in the future, there will be no low entropy sources of energy for life forms to exploit. I think that applies for a Universe that is expanding like ours, whether it is infinite in extent or not. This is well beyond my level of competence in astrophysics, so take it with a hefty pinch of salt.

[Nearly Sane]

Will some be identical to use in every way?

There are only so many combinations of atoms in a given space, so with infinite space some patterns must repeat.

logically, if the restriction is correct, then there be an infinite number identical to us.

[Nearly Sane]

Errr possibly...

Entropy plays a part so that, at some point in the future, there will be no low entropy sources of energy for life forms to exploit. I think that applies for a Universe that is expanding like ours, whether it is infinite in extent or not. This is well beyond my level of competence in astrophysics, so take it with a hefty pinch of salt.

Yeah, I think we have to use it as a thought experiment with a number of assumptions, and part of what the second article was covering seemed to be the while idea of something post heat death as well as pre Big Bang.

Interesting topic if a bit of a derail. I will now say a prayer to see if I can stop my head hurting from all this infinity.

[torridon]

When the physical senses shut down during sleep, the soul's window into this physical universe will shut too.  And as time is a physical property of this material universe, the soul's perception of time will also shut down during sleep. 

How convenient to have a nice easy answer.  Of course this nice easy answer leaves unaddressed how an immaterial thing could interact at all with something in the material world, given that is what 'immaterial' means.  AKA 'having your cake and eating it'

[Sebastian Toe]

When the physical senses shut down during sleep, the soul's window into this physical universe will shut too.  And as time is a physical property of this material universe, the soul's perception of time will also shut down during sleep.

That means then that the soul shuts down permanently during the permanent sleep ie death?

[floo]

That means then that the soul shuts down permanently during the permanent sleep ie death?

As the soul is only a fancy name for consciousness, when we die the body and mind shut down for good, imo.

[BashfulAnthony]

As the soul is only a fancy name for consciousness, when we die the body and mind shut down for good, imo.

It is only your opinion, because you don't know: nobody does.

[BeRational]

It is only your opinion, because you don't know: nobody does.

But until there is evidence for its existence, the default position is NOT to believe it exists.

[BashfulAnthony]

But until there is evidence for its existence, the default position is NOT to believe it exists.

Do you believe there is life elsewhere in the Universe?

[BeRational]

Do you believe there is life elsewhere in the Universe?

No

[BashfulAnthony]

No

There have been meteorites land on Earth with microscopic life on them.  So you are wrong there.  It is just conceivable that you might be wrong about other matters. It is not just a matter of evidence: it is also about informed and intelligent debate. Without that there never will be any evidence because we won't.

[BeRational]

There have been meteorites land on Earth with microscopic life on them.  So you are wrong there.  It is just conceivable that you might be wrong about other matters. It is not just a matter of evidence: it is also about informed and intelligent debate. Without that there never will be any evidence because we won't.

There have been ZERO meteorites with life on them!!!!!!!

If there had been it would be world shattering news!

You are confusing this with proteins that are used by life on Earth.

So you are wrong ,and not me in this instance.

Do you believe life exists on other planets?

[ekim]

To which the staunch atheist replies "you said God created everything".
To which the staunch atheist replies "God created man, and if he (God) is omniscient, he would know that the Man he designed would try to create impossibly narrow paths."

You see if the God that Christians claim exists actually does exist, he is responsible for everything by virtue of his omni- powers.

That's  where Alan's God given 'free choice' come in.  There is no fun in populating the Earth with robots which can only follow a set program.  So he embedded a soul within a semi robotic disposable physical body.  The more the soul identifies with the physical and mental the further it falls from the heavenly.  The path to the Heavenly state is only narrow through lack of use.  The path to eternal damnation is wide because of over use.   As the main man said "Your body is made from earthly elements but if you lose your valuable inner essence how will you replenish it? Then of what good are you but to be returned to the earth to be trodden under foot."  and ... "Don’t attach yourself to transient earthly pleasures but unite with the eternal delights of the Divine. What you treasure is where your heart is."

[jeremyp]

There have been meteorites land on Earth with microscopic life on them.

No there haven't.

So you are wrong there.  It is just conceivable that you might be wrong about other matters. It is not just a matter of evidence: it is also about informed and intelligent debate. Without that there never will be any evidence because we won't.

No, in fact, you are wrong on this occasion. If a meteorite had landed on Earth with life in it, that would be a massive discovery.

[Nearly Sane]

Exactly.

So you don't believe there is life elsewhere in the universe?

[BashfulAnthony]

No there haven't.
No, in fact, you are wrong on this occasion. If a meteorite had landed on Earth with life in it, that would be a massive discovery.

There have been claims of life on meteorites.  I, like you, am unable to verify such claims, as I, like you, am not qualified to do so.  There has been much scientific discussion, most recently on a paper produced by Sri Lankan astronomers.

[Maeght]

There have been claims of life on meteorites.  I, like you, am unable to verify such claims, as I, like you, am not qualified to do so.  There has been much scientific discussion, most recently on a paper produced by Sri Lankan astronomers.

There are claims of fossil evidence of life in meteorites but not actual life on meteorites as I understand it.

[jeremyp]

There have been claims of life on meteorites.

Not by reputable scientists.

I, like you, am unable to verify such claims, as I, like you, am not qualified to do so.

There would be massive headlines about it all over the media if the stories were true.

[BeRational]

There have been claims of life on meteorites.  I, like you, am unable to verify such claims, as I, like you, am not qualified to do so.  There has been much scientific discussion, most recently on a paper produced by Sri Lankan astronomers.

These claims are NOT verified.

So at this time there is ZERO evidence for life anywhere except on the Earth.

If life is found elsewhere, it will be MASSIVE news and you will not miss it.

[Nearly Sane]

It might be worth unpacking the question about whether there is life elsewhere in the universe because BeRational's position here is extremely useful in showing the position of quite a number of the atheists on this board. When he states that he does not believe in life elsewhere in the universe, he is not taking the position that there is no life elsewhere in the universe. 

Taking the hypothetical of there actually being life found in meteorites, if that had happened but BeRational had not heard of it, his position based on the evidence to hand is still logical. If there are claims of such life being found, and he is aware of them, then until those claims are investigated, his position is still logical.

[Alan Burns]

How convenient to have a nice easy answer.  Of course this nice easy answer leaves unaddressed how an immaterial thing could interact at all with something in the material world, given that is what 'immaterial' means.  AKA 'having your cake and eating it'

You seem to be very optimistic about what can be achieved by purely material entities which simply react to events.  The evidence for the existence of non material entities which are not restricted by deterministic rules of science lie in the perception of your own existence

[wigginhall]

You seem to be very optimistic about what can be achieved by purely material entities which simply react to events.  The evidence for the existence of non material entities which are not restricted by deterministic rules of science lie in the perception of your own existence

The weird thing is that your citing of the inadequacy of materialism in accounting for consciousness, self, and so on, is matched by your inability to show how the immaterial connects with the material.  Just like that, I suppose!

[Sebastian Toe]

You seem to be very optimistic about what can be achieved by purely material entities which simply react to events.  The evidence for the existence of non material entities which are not restricted by deterministic rules of science lie in the perception of your own existence

I think you mistyped evidence instead of assertion.

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

You seem to be very optimistic about what can be achieved by purely material entities which simply react to events.  The evidence for the existence of non material entities which are not restricted by deterministic rules of science lie in the perception of your own existence

No, the only "evidence" you have for non-material stuff is your limited reasoning ability. If you could grasp the arguments you've been given you'd realise that the claim utter nonsense.

Mind you, if you want to assert into existence the non-material nonetheless I guess using non-sense to do it has a certain pleasing aptness.