Saint Teresa

[Bubbles]

That would be utterly damning, if she brought in sick people, and didn't treat them, so that they died needlessly.   Not saintly at all, in fact, sadistic.

Ok so you think they were better left on the street, to die.

Bear in mind if she hadn't been there, that's what would have happened to them.

In the UK we get treated for free  when we are ill, but in other countries people have to pay for treatment or die.

Is Mother Teresa worse than a wealthy doctor who has a cure, but withholds it because the patient can't afford it actually any better?

For a while I corresponded with a pregnant lady in the states who was desperately worried about the health of her unborn child, but she couldn't afford to see a doctor.


Is a doctor who witholds a cure or pain relief because of monetary concerns any better than Mother Teresa?

Because in a lot of countries medical help costs money and a price is put on lives.

Here in the UK we are extremely lucky IMO because we tend to give it.

We don't have to remortgage our house if we need a lifesaving op.

However should we lose the NHS hospitals could well take in dying people they could cure, but not treat them.

That's what private means if you are so poor you can't afford expensive health insurance.

[jeremyp]

Yes I've made my substantive points, you chose to ignore them.

No I didn't.

its not the promoting of books that makes them dishonest, but whether they are spreading untruths to promote their books.

Which of my examples were spreading untruths? Obviously, we can let JK Rowling off the hook, but your main argument against Hitchens' seems to be that he promoted his book and that is a circular argument.

Christopher Hitchins is into character assassination, and it's promoting that in the way he did , that makes him dishonest.  He is a disher of dirt.

Not if he is correct about Mother Teresa.

None of the others you mention go in for the sort of nasty character assassination that Christopher Hitchins does.

What about you? You are assassinating the character of Hitchens, or trying to.

That's how he sold his books, by dishing up the dirt on anyone who was well known.

Who else has he been dishing dirt on?

That's why I don't trust what he writes, because his agenda was to character assassinate anyone he thought was a target.

To make money! And make a name for himself.

None of the other authors you mention stoop that low.

Christopher Hitchens made a living out of character assassination, he's the lowest of the low IMO.

He belongs on the bookshelf alongside David Icke for making money by writing books aimed at making money by being malicious about other people.

It wasn't just Mother Teresa he attacked, was it?

He was a disher of dirt of the worst sort.

Bloody hell. You made your point in the first couple of sentences, repeating it endlessly like a demented theist isn't going to make you right.

[jeremyp]

Hitchens was extremely arrogant, pompous and ill mannered.

Actually, he was unfailingly polite to the people with whom he crossed swords.

I formed my opinion having seen him in discussion many times on youtube or TV and I have no anti-Hitchens agenda.

Right.... Show me a Youtube video where he didn't treat his opponent with the respect they deserved.

[jeremyp]

Yes, I am aware things were not good.

But what I want to gauge is how much of that was down to Mother Teresa and how much down to the Roman Catholic Church.

It is a very wealthy church with very poor members.

Talking to an ex nun I get the impression they are a bit stingy with allocating funds.

They are rich because they don't give it away to the poor.

The finances of her organisation were not controlled by the RC church.

[Sebastian Toe]

One day I met a lady who was dying of cancer in a most terrible condition.
And I told her, I say, "You know, this terrible pain is only the kiss of Jesus — a sign that you have come so close to Jesus on the cross that he can kiss you."
And she joined her hands together and said, "Mother Teresa, please tell Jesus to stop kissing me".

https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Mother_Teresa

[Nearly Sane]

Your sentence doesn't logically.

Yes Catholic healthcare providers don't supply birth control or give abortions but it doesn't follow they are denying ALL medicine.

I think you have the RC muddled with the Christian Scientists.

Anyway I think medicines for abortions and birth control were probably the last of the worries of those she took off the streets.

you changed the word order from 'all denying medicine' to 'denying all medicine' as this changes the meaning, I suggest you owe SqueakyVoice an apology for the misrepresentation.

[Bubbles]

No I didn't.
Which of my examples were spreading untruths? Obviously, we can let JK Rowling off the hook, but your main argument against Hitchens' seems to be that he promoted his book and that is a circular argument.
Not if he is correct about Mother Teresa.
What about you? You are assassinating the character of Hitchens, or trying to.
Who else has he been dishing dirt on?
Bloody hell. You made your point in the first couple of sentences, repeating it endlessly like a demented theist isn't going to make you right.

Mel Gibson, Princess Diana, President Bill Clinton, Reverend Jerry Falwell, Bob Hope and Mother Teresa just few that spring to mind.

[wigginhall]

Ok so you think they were better left on the street, to die.

Please, Rose, would you mind not telling me what I think?

I think it would have been better if sick people like this, had been diagnosed and given treatment, and not left to die. 

[jeremyp]

Mel Gibson, Princess Diana, President Bill Clinton, Reverend Jerry Falwell, Bob Hope and Mother Teresa just few that spring to mind.

And if he is correct in what hew said about all those people?

Certainly he was fiercely critical of many people but that is not the same as character assassination.

[jeremyp]

Please, Rose, would you mind not telling me what I think?

I think it would have been better if sick people like this, had been diagnosed and given treatment, and not left to die.

And also, perhaps some of them only died because MT was too miserly to even sterilise her needles.

[Nearly Sane]

Mel Gibson, Princess Diana, President Bill Clinton, Reverend Jerry Falwell, Bob Hope and Mother Teresa just few that spring to mind.

Like you did hypocritically with your approach on Hitchens drinking?

[Gordon]

Hitchins was a polemicist: and a rather good one too in both writing and oratory, so you'd hardly expect him to be shy and retiring - and I'd say he hit the target in his exposure of the hideous Agnes (amongst others).

I'm just astonished that in this day and age some people still take this medieval sainthood/miracles nonsense seriously.

[ProfessorDavey]

Ok so you think they were better left on the street, to die.

You are massively missing the point, and there are 2 parts to this.

First she has massive resources available to her, so had she chosen she couldn't have provided high quality care to those people. For reasons that I cannot fathom (but I don't have her faith perspective) she chose not to provide that medical care.

But the second point is that due to her globally high profile she acted as a kind of magnet for funding to Calcutta to provide care to the poorest, and therefore sucked resources from others who might actually have provided much better care had the funding gone their way rather than hers.

I will dig out and post the details of what Robin Fox found in the early 90s when he visited. And remember he was a hugely eminent doctor, and editor of the leading medical journal The Lancet - he was horrified.

[wigginhall]

I think one of his criticisms (Fox) was that she didn't distinguish between curable and incurable people, so that the curable patients could easily die also, through neglect.   If a doctor did that, surely they would be struck off.

[Bubbles]

Actually, he was unfailingly polite to the people with whom he crossed swords.
Right.... Show me a Youtube video where he didn't treat his opponent with the respect they deserved.

Unfailingly polite? 


Well he was quite rude to the audience here as well as the others in the discussion.

The audience didn't deserve that.

https://youtu.be/MoclaTQWzvc

[jeremyp]

Unfailingly polite? 

Watch some of his videos. He, unlike you, understood the difference between eviscerating an argument and eviscerating a person.

[Bubbles]

Like you did hypocritically with your approach on Hitchens drinking?

No the people who met him all commented on his drinking.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/books/7778346/An-audience-with-Christopher-Hitchens.html

[jeremyp]

Another interesting take on Mother Teresa

http://www.ibiblio.org/prism/oct97/mothert.html

One of the effects of MT removing sick poor people from the streets was that rich people did not have to look at them any more - out of sight, out of mind - and the rich paid handsomely for her to provide the service.

[jeremyp]

No the people who met him all commented on his drinking.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/books/7778346/An-audience-with-Christopher-Hitchens.html

That's a classic ad hominem. Hitchens' drinking has nothing to do with the validity of his arguments.

[wigginhall]

Also, a total derail.

[Nearly Sane]

No the people who met him all commented on his drinking.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/books/7778346/An-audience-with-Christopher-Hitchens.html

and? you state that personal attacks are wrong yet you used his drinking to attack Hitchrns referring to him as a 'malicious drunk' ergo you are a hypocrite

[Bubbles]

Watch some of his videos. He, unlike you, understood the difference between eviscerating an argument and eviscerating a person.

You are not eviscerating an argument when you are putting your middle finger up to an audience.

I have watched some of his videos.

He's rude.
 

[Bubbles]

and? you state that personal attacks are wrong yet you used his drinking to attack Hitchrns referring to him as a 'malicious drunk' ergo you are a hypocrite

I'm not in a position of authority in the media to make unprovoked attacks on people to sell my books.

When I swagger onto a podium be as rude as him, stick my middle finger up to an audience and never let anyone else get a word in edge ways, abuse my position in the media ......... Then yes, I'll be a hypocrite.

[Nearly Sane]

You are not eviscerating an argument when you are putting your middle finger up to an audience.

I have watched some of his videos.

He's rude.

And another personal attack being used hypocritically and as an ad hominem

[Nearly Sane]

I'm not in a position of authority in the media to make unprovoked attacks on people to sell my books.

When I swagger onto a podium be as rude as him, stick my middle finger up to an audience and never let anyone else get a word in edge ways, abuse my position in the media ......... Then yes, I'll be a hypocrite.

no, you said personal attacks were wrong and then have continually indulged in them on this thread. That's why you are a hypocrite.