A tale of two Bishops

[Walt Zingmatilder]

The ''unbelieving bishop'' David Jenkins has died. I was walking past Durham Cathedral during the summer and in conversation was surprised to learn that he was at that point still living. The Bishop famously had non orthodox expressed views over some points of doctrine. Jenkin's core Christianity had some unexpected defenders though including David Shepherd the evangelical Bishop of Liverpool. It put me in mind of Richard Holloway a man whom by his own admission had more right to the title unbelieving Bishop. Holloway had deeper unbelief and yet rose to high office before finally leaving later in life. He is now revered by people in the unbelieving community.....presumably in the same way as spies who defect are.

[Nearly Sane]

Jenkins was a clever reflective man often traduced by those whose overall beliefs he shared. His comment about the resurrection not just being a 'conjuring trick with bones' was misunderstood by people who were theists and people who were atheists. He was warm,  considerate, and found the time I was proposing to have a massed chorus of Glasgow students sing ' The Bishop of Durham is a dirty fucking bastard' amusing enough to give us a case of wine.


Both he and Holloway dripped with an open and caring humanity. Both had flaws, we all do. If you want to discuss either of them, I suggest they deserve their own threads.

[Sebastian Toe]

He was warm,  considerate, and found the time I was proposing to have a massed chorus of Glasgow students sing ' The Bishop of Durham is a dirty fucking bastard' amusing enough to give us a case of wine.

You do realise that BA is back don't you?

If he spots your cussin' he'll be all over you like a fly on shite. 

[BashfulAnthony]

You do realise that BA is back don't you?

If he spots your cussin' he'll be all over you like a fly on shite. 

Back in the day (student day) I used to have a t-shirt with Jenkins' famous , "Don't let the b******* get you down," on it  On that basis, I'll ignore the above post!

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Jenkins was a clever reflective man often traduced by those whose overall beliefs he shared. His comment about the resurrection not just being a 'conjuring trick with bones' was misunderstood by people who were theists and people who were atheists. He was warm,  considerate, and found the time I was proposing to have a massed chorus of Glasgow students sing ' The Bishop of Durham is a dirty fucking bastard' amusing enough to give us a case of wine.


Both he and Holloway dripped with an open and caring humanity. Both had flaws, we all do. If you want to discuss either of them, I suggest they deserve their own threads.

I think even you'll accept that Holloway has his detractors whose main case is that he should have left the church when as a priest he was self admittedly not really a believer instead of rising to the rank of Bishop.

If we add in your sentiments perhaps it is a pity he didn't join the ranks of public unbelief earlier and given it a kinder face.

[Nearly Sane]

I think even you'll accept that Holloway has his detractors whose main case is that he should have left the church when as a priest he was self admittedly not really a believer instead of rising to the rank of Bishop.

If we add in your sentiments perhaps it is a pity he didn't join the ranks of public unbelief earlier and given it a kinder face.

If you want a discussion of Holloway raise a post on him. I don't see the case for running it this way with a duscussiinon Jenkins, when as your above post illustrates, you have ignored everything that was said about Jenkins

[Sebastian Toe]

Back in the day (student day) I used to have a t-shirt with Jenkins' famous , "Don't let the b******* get you down," on it  On that basis, I'll ignore the above post!

[Sassy]

The ''unbelieving bishop'' David Jenkins has died. I was walking past Durham Cathedral during the summer and in conversation was surprised to learn that he was at that point still living. The Bishop famously had non orthodox expressed views over some points of doctrine. Jenkin's core Christianity had some unexpected defenders though including David Shepherd the evangelical Bishop of Liverpool. It put me in mind of Richard Holloway a man whom by his own admission had more right to the title unbelieving Bishop. Holloway had deeper unbelief and yet rose to high office before finally leaving later in life. He is now revered by people in the unbelieving community.....presumably in the same way as spies who defect are.

Is that David Shepherd ex cricketer?
He did a friends induction into his new Church in the 80's.
David Jenkins didn't believe in the virgin birth if I remember. Having be made bishop at York Minster it was struck by lightening a few days later and set on fire?
I have to say many clergy and Christians thought that a sign of discourse.

Maybe he finally found the truth and went home to be with the LORD.

[Brownie]

David Jenkins said there was more to the Resurrection than a conjouring trick with bones.  He was widely misquoted and misunderstood.

(I don't know about the other Bishop, Holloway, that Vlad mentioned in the op.)

[SteveH]

Jenkins questioned this and that, but didn't seem to have an over-arching theology, unlike John "Honest to God" Robinson, the late Bishop of Woolwich.

[NicholasMarks]

Don't you think it odd when people who lead a church don't believe in what they are teaching. It all boils down to image-craft...put on the collar and the cassock and fool all those you are preaching to because though you have high office  and a leading role you have no sincerity or enthusiasm for you work. This is iniquity and no matter how you look at it can only be supported by an iniquiteous church.

Isn't it Biblically covered by saying black is white and white black...or that wrong is right and right is wrong.

[Harrowby Hall]

Don't you think it odd when people who lead a church don't believe in what they are teaching. It all boils down to image-craft...put on the collar and the cassock and fool all those you are preaching to because though you have high office  and a leading role you have no sincerity or enthusiasm for you work. This is iniquity and no matter how you look at it can only be supported by an iniquiteous church.

Isn't it Biblically covered by saying black is white and white black...or that wrong is right and right is wrong.

No, I think it is a sign of their honesty and the difficulties they experience reconciling their genuine faith with their own humanity and their knowledge of how the world works. Even though I do not share their beliefs I think they are much more worthy of my respect than those people who just accept the fairy tales without even questioning their veracity.

[NicholasMarks]

No, I think it is a sign of their honesty and the difficulties they experience reconciling their genuine faith with their own humanity and their knowledge of how the world works. Even though I do not share their beliefs I think they are much more worthy of my respect than those people who just accept the fairy tales without even questioning their veracity.

You see how brain washing works then. Here are people who stand in front of many others who are seeking the truth about Jesus Christ but are sold a tale of insincerity, with, perhaps, false teachings smuggled in. No wonder the unrighteous can stand among the church crowd without guilt or compassion or even the desire to bring a world of righteousness and its good order into the lives of those who listen to them.

So...ok...its good theatre but it is all false prophets at work.

[Brownie]

I agree with what SteveH said regarding Robinson and certainly understand where HH is coming from but I think the answer often is that people change;  a person who is ordained in his/her twenties is different ten or twenty years on.  It happens with us who are not ordained, why not in the priesthood?  Plenty of people leave ordained ministry as they get a bit older and choose another occupation, often something that relates to their previous, ie working for a charity or with vulnerable people, because they have a crisis of faith.  It's not easy putting on a dog collar, certainly not in recent times.

[Sassy]

No, I think it is a sign of their honesty and the difficulties they experience reconciling their genuine faith with their own humanity and their knowledge of how the world works. Even though I do not share their beliefs I think they are much more worthy of my respect than those people who just accept the fairy tales without even questioning their veracity.

What would be difficult to reconcile about knowing God and Jesus Christ? What part of this is fairy tale? Aren't you really reflecting what you think it means to believe onto Christians and not what the bible says will happen to true believer?

[Harrowby Hall]

What would be difficult to reconcile about knowing God and Jesus Christ? What part of this is fairy tale? Aren't you really reflecting what you think it means to believe onto Christians and not what the bible says will happen to true believer?

I once was a believing Christian. But when I became a man, I put away my childish things ...

[Sassy]

I once was a believing Christian. But when I became a man, I put away my childish things ...

Evasion? surely not?

What is the difference between you putting away childish things and that of Jesus Christ?

Would you say your life has been full of those things Christ was full of, as a grown man?

Isn't that the truth that we are talking about your own self and your uneducated view of the faith when putting away childish things?  Was what Christ did, - Childish?

What was it about the things he did which were childish?

He Cured the sick.
He made the blind see.
He touched the outcast who had leprosy and healed them.
He fed the hungry and he cured the lame making men to walk again.
He cast out devils and he preached the Kingdom of heaven.

When you put away your childish things did you do any of the above?
Can you say anything as an adult meant enough to lay down your life for them?

Do you feel your quip an adequate reply now when misusing a term which in faith terms can never apply to you outside the truth? You never reached a maturity in your faith to put away childish things and become that which Christ had in store for you.
This is what Christ says to those who believe in him:-


If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

In all honesty, HH,
I think we can safely say you Never reached any Christian Maturity. 

[BashfulAnthony]

Evasion? surely not?

What is the difference between you putting away childish things and that of Jesus Christ?

Would you say your life has been full of those things Christ was full of, as a grown man?

Isn't that the truth that we are talking about your own self and your uneducated view of the faith when putting away childish things?  Was what Christ did, - Childish?

What was it about the things he did which were childish?

He Cured the sick.
He made the blind see.
He touched the outcast who had leprosy and healed them.
He fed the hungry and he cured the lame making men to walk again.
He cast out devils and he preached the Kingdom of heaven.

When you put away your childish things did you do any of the above?
Can you say anything as an adult meant enough to lay down your life for them?

Do you feel your quip an adequate reply now when misusing a term which in faith terms can never apply to you outside the truth? You never reached a maturity in your faith to put away childish things and become that which Christ had in store for you.
This is what Christ says to those who believe in him:-


If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

In all honesty, HH,
I think we can safely say you Never reached any Christian Maturity. 

Good post Sassy.

[NicholasMarks]

Good post Sassy.

Seconded.

[Sassy]

Bash and Nicholas,

Thank God that we agree on these things. But it really all comes from God in that we are guided and given the words.
Sometimes when people say something I wrote is good I am not ignoring them when I usually say nothing.
It is because I believe that we are only telling the truth as it is. Just never had the words to explain before.
But thanks to all who kindly take the time to say...