Author Topic: Where is god?  (Read 24674 times)

Gonnagle

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Re: Where is god?
« Reply #150 on: September 12, 2016, 06:36:58 PM »
Dear Torridon,

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So, whilst I agree it might not be fair on your grandmother to call her a monkey, it would be quite properly fair to call your great-great great-great-great-great great-great-great-great great-great-great-great great-great{..one million four hundred thousand more greats..}-great-great grandmother a monkey because she was one.

No she wasn't, if you are going to spout evolution get it right, descended from monkey like, not a monkey, monkey like, we are distant cousins to monkeys, we are not descended from, a school boy error but I forgive you.

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0932663.html

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The Relationship between Apes and Humans
Since scientists developed the ability to decode the genome and compare the genetic makeup of species, some people have been stunned to learn that about 98.5% of the genes in people and chimpanzees are identical. This finding means chimps are the closest living biological relatives to humans, but it does not mean that humans evolved from chimps. What it does indicate is that humans share a common ancestor with modern African apes (i.e., gorillas and chimpanzees), making us very, very distant cousins. We are therefore related to these other living primates, but we did not descend from them.

Gonnagle.
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torridon

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Re: Where is god?
« Reply #151 on: September 12, 2016, 06:42:22 PM »
Dear Torridon,

No she wasn't, if you are going to spout evolution get it right, descended from monkey like, not a monkey, monkey like, we are distant cousins to monkeys, we are not descended from, a school boy error but I forgive you.

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0932663.html

Gonnagle.

Gonners you're coming on leaps and bounds.  Keep up the good work  ;)

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Where is god?
« Reply #152 on: September 12, 2016, 06:49:58 PM »
Gonners,

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No she wasn't, if you are going to spout evolution get it right, descended from monkey like, not a monkey, monkey like, we are distant cousins to monkeys, we are not descended from, a school boy error but I forgive you.

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0932663.html

I wouldn't get too excited about that though - we also share about 85% of our DNA with Zebra Fish, and quite a lot with banana plants and with ferns too. Why it's almost as if a blueprint had come about naturally rather than that a god of the omnis had conjured these things up afresh each time! 
« Last Edit: September 12, 2016, 08:00:56 PM by bluehillside »
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God

Gonnagle

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Re: Where is god?
« Reply #153 on: September 12, 2016, 07:22:06 PM »
Dear Blue,

Ooops you did it again!! ( think Britney ) but I do get excited, another wonder of this thing we call life/Universe, I am connected to a fern and a Zebra fish ( banana plant, sounds a bit naff  :P ) there is a blueprint and we are all connected and one day we may, I hope and pray, realise that, rip off the mask of nature to see reveal ( reveal sounds better ) the face of God.

Gonnagle.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2016, 07:25:42 PM by Gonnagle »
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Where is god?
« Reply #154 on: September 12, 2016, 08:03:21 PM »
Gonners,

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Ooops you did it again!! ( think Britney ) but I do get excited, another wonder of this thing we call life/Universe, I am connected to a fern and a Zebra fish ( banana plant, sounds a bit naff  :P ) there is a blueprint and we are all connected and one day we may, I hope and pray, realise that, rip off the mask of nature to see reveal ( reveal sounds better ) the face of God.

Or, better yet, of reality.

Incidentally, back to the chimps again apparently we share more of our DNA with them than dolphins share with porpoises. Remarkable innit? 
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God

Jack Knave

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Re: Where is god?
« Reply #155 on: September 12, 2016, 08:14:36 PM »
Gonners you're coming on leaps and bounds.  Keep up the good work  ;)
I second that.

NicholasMarks

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Re: Where is god?
« Reply #156 on: September 12, 2016, 09:19:00 PM »
Dear Torridon,

No she wasn't, if you are going to spout evolution get it right, descended from monkey like, not a monkey, monkey like, we are distant cousins to monkeys, we are not descended from, a school boy error but I forgive you.

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0932663.html

Gonnagle.

What is obvious to me from my own studies of the mechanics of the universe is that Almighty God is involved in every behaviour and scientific manifestation that takes place within that universe. This is easiest to understand if we accept that a wonderful dynamic energy existed before the starting point we call the big-bang...so that every scientific principle begins and ends with the electric/spiritual behaviour pattern that came to life from that starting point, onward. The living cell is such an electric/spiritual entity and beneath its own replicating mechanics is an invisible electric phenomenon that comes together in two parts dragging the atomic mass it collects as dna with it. This means that every living cell has these same electric forces beavering away within them, it's just the dna arrangement that marks the difference between one species and another. Almighty God must have known all this when he made man as human rather than animal...the difference being that man can respond to righteous laws which contains the electric/spiritual pathway to our salvation...those who prefer to be monkeys need not apply.



 

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Where is god?
« Reply #157 on: September 12, 2016, 09:29:39 PM »
Sparky,

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What is obvious to me from my own studies of the mechanics of the universe is that Almighty God is involved in every behaviour and scientific manifestation that takes place within that universe. This is easiest to understand if we accept that a wonderful dynamic energy existed before the starting point we call the big-bang...so that every scientific principle begins and ends with the electric/spiritual behaviour pattern that came to life from that starting point, onward. The living cell is such an electric/spiritual entity and beneath its own replicating mechanics is an invisible electric phenomenon that comes together in two parts dragging the atomic mass it collects as dna with it. This means that every living cell has these same electric forces beavering away within them, it's just the dna arrangement that marks the difference between one species and another. Almighty God must have known all this when he made man as human rather than animal...the difference being that man can respond to righteous laws which contains the electric/spiritual pathway to our salvation...those who prefer to be monkeys need not apply.

Further assertions noted. Now then, any chance finally of some kind of argument to validate them just so, you know, the rest of us won't think this is all madder than a monkey on a tricycle?

In your own time old son.
"Don't make me come down there."

God

floo

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Re: Where is god?
« Reply #158 on: September 13, 2016, 08:21:41 AM »
NM appears to be obsessed with the word 'electric'.

Maeght

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Re: Where is god?
« Reply #159 on: September 13, 2016, 09:17:26 AM »
NM appears to be obsessed with the word 'electric'.

ALways has been, always will be I'm afraid.

floo

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Re: Where is god?
« Reply #160 on: September 13, 2016, 09:28:54 AM »
ALways has been, always will be I'm afraid.

To give credit where credit is due, NM doesn't appear to take offence when his posts are challenged, which they invariably are..

NicholasMarks

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Re: Where is god?
« Reply #161 on: September 13, 2016, 09:46:13 AM »
Sparky,

Further assertions noted. Now then, any chance finally of some kind of argument to validate them just so, you know, the rest of us won't think this is all madder than a monkey on a tricycle?

In your own time old son.

I'll try and explain myself bluehillside but I'm not hopeful...You see...modern science says that all those trillions upon trilllions of megatons of electric energy containred within all those vast amounts of solar electric furnaces in the heavens came from a singularity...a big-bang...I and the Holy Bible disagree...are you with me so far?

We say that there is/was an indestructible energy there first....a material not unlike dark matter but with much more bite. A bite so powerful that the entire mechancs of the universe can be traced back to it. Almighty God says it is very different to what you might normally expect and follows its own righteous laws...the very same laws Jesus taught us.



« Last Edit: September 13, 2016, 10:04:32 AM by NicholasMarks »

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Where is god?
« Reply #162 on: September 13, 2016, 10:15:24 AM »
Sparky,

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I'll try and explain myself bluehillside but I'm not hopeful...You see...modern science says that all those trillions upon trilllions of megatons of electric energy containred within all those vast amounts of solar electric furnaces in the heavens came from a singularity...a big-bang...I and the Holy Bible disagree...are you with me so far?

Leaving aside your somewhat eccentric description of what "science" says, yes I'm with you so far - you have a personal opinion that contradicts the evidence and reasoning that science provides.

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We say that there is/was an indestructible energy there first....a material not unlike dark matter but with much more bite. A bite so powerful that the entire mechancs of the universe can be traced back to it. Almighty God says it is very different to what you might normally expect and follows its own righteous laws...the very same laws Jesus taught us.

Who's "we"? I'm pretty sure that you're all on your own in your opinions here.

Anyways, what you've done there is to state a personal belief. What you've been asked to do however is to explain why you hold it. That's the problem here. Imagine if, say, I pitched up and said something like, "the science of gravity is all wrong. My studies lead me to conclude that stuff is held down by invisible pixies holding everything in place with very thin string".

In response you might say something like, "well, okaaay - why do you think that? What reasoning or evidence do you have for this remarkable claim?" only every time you did so I'd just repeat my pixie conjecture with no attempt of any kind to validate it. 

That's essentially what's happening here, only it's the other way around. You make the same assertions over and over again, but never once trouble yourself with telling us why you think any of these things to be true.   

Do you see your problem now?
« Last Edit: September 13, 2016, 10:41:56 AM by bluehillside »
"Don't make me come down there."

God

floo

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Re: Where is god?
« Reply #163 on: September 13, 2016, 10:38:55 AM »
I'll try and explain myself bluehillside but I'm not hopeful...You see...modern science says that all those trillions upon trilllions of megatons of electric energy containred within all those vast amounts of solar electric furnaces in the heavens came from a singularity...a big-bang...I and the Holy Bible disagree...are you with me so far?

We say that there is/was an indestructible energy there first....a material not unlike dark matter but with much more bite. A bite so powerful that the entire mechancs of the universe can be traced back to it. Almighty God says it is very different to what you might normally expect and follows its own righteous laws...the very same laws Jesus taught us.

If god exists I wouldn't be surprised if it is sitting on its fluffy white cloud scratching its head like the rest of us, wondering how on earth you come up with your eccentric scenarios!

NicholasMarks

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Re: Where is god?
« Reply #164 on: September 13, 2016, 10:43:38 AM »
Sparky,

Leaving aside your somewhat eccentric description of what "science" says, yes I'm with you so far - you have a personal opinion that contradicts the evidence and reasoning that science provides.

Who's "we"? I'm pretty sure that you're all on your own in your opinions here.

Anyways, what you've done there is to state a personal belief. What you've been asked to do however is to explain why you hold it. That's the problem here. Imagine if, say, I pitched up and said something like, "the science of gravity is all wrong. My studies lead me to conclude that stuff is held down by invisible pixies holding everything in place with very thing string".

In response you might say something like, "well, okaaay - why do you think that? What reasoning or evidence do you have for this remarkable claim?" only every time you did so I'd just repeat my pixie conjecture with no attempt of any kind to validate it. 

That's essentially what's happening here, only it's the other way around. You make the same assertions over and over again, but never once trouble yourself with telling us why you think any of these things to be true.   

Do you see your problem now?

Ducking and diving wont help you here bluehillside...my first allegiance is to Almighty God and his son Jesus Christ and showing why they are better followed...by faith in the first instance but by science if you can get your head round it...as long as by faith we follow his accurate teaching not the messy version delivered by iniquity.

Of course there is no need to follow at all but all opposition will be silenced when Wormwood sweeps by because the electric/spiritual forces that will accompany it will certainly separate those truly repentant from those who truly love to argue against righteousness...and that is in the Holy Bible too.


bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Where is god?
« Reply #165 on: September 13, 2016, 10:52:36 AM »
Sparky,

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Ducking and diving wont help you here bluehillside...

What ducking and diving? The only person doing it here is you when you continue to avoid telling us why you hold the opinions you have.

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...my first allegiance is to Almighty God and his son Jesus Christ and showing why they are better followed...by faith in the first instance but by science if you can get your head round it...as long as by faith we follow his accurate teaching not the messy version delivered by iniquity.

Your personal opinion about this is noted. Again.

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Of course there is no need to follow at all but all opposition will be silenced when Wormwood sweeps by because the electric/spiritual forces that will accompany it will certainly separate those truly repentant from those who truly love to argue against righteousness...and that is in the Holy Bible too.

Your personal opinion about this is noted. Again.

Just to avoid wasting more time chasing you all over this mb asking you finally to answer the question you've been asked several times now about why you believe as you do, would you at least tell us whether you intend always to avoid answering it - or, to use your term - do you intend to keep ducking and diving?

Ta.
"Don't make me come down there."

God

SwordOfTheSpirit

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Re: Where is god?
« Reply #166 on: September 13, 2016, 05:38:13 PM »
What you're attempting here is the negative proof fallacy - a basic logical error.

Not really.

Can you prove that David Cameron is not the President of the United States?

Can you prove that the River Seine does not run through Central London?

Can you prove that 2+2<>5?

That's the way truth works! You can prove it in the affirmative, or prove it is false by showing that a converse is true.

What happens here however, is that there is a precommitment to natural causes and explanations. Is this worldview true, or not? By scientific standards, it should be falsifiable. It is not.

The problem with the Celestial Teapot (and all arguments based on it) is the assumption that religious belief has no evidence to support it. Therefore something made up is wrongly compared to religious belief. It's an incorrect comparison. What evidence is there that a teapot is orbiting in space? It is clearly made-up.

So what it comes down to is the worldview used to interpret the evidence. What scientific/empirical evidence do I have for the emotion of love or anger? Should I say that these don't exist because they cannot be measured scientifically?

If one starts with evidence, it doesn't always lead to truth. However, truth is always supported by evidence. Evidence can have a variety of forms, but ultimately it is the worldview used to interpret it that will determine the conclusion. Therefore it is essential that the correct worldview is employed.
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Where is god?
« Reply #167 on: September 13, 2016, 05:50:02 PM »
Sword,

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Not really.

Yes really.

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Can you prove that David Cameron is not the President of the United States?

Can you prove that the River Seine does not run through Central London?

Can you prove that 2+2<>5?

That's the way truth works! You can prove it in the affirmative, or prove it is false by showing that a converse is true.

How would you propose to "prove" a negative exactly?

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What happens here however, is that there is a precommitment to natural causes and explanations. Is this worldview true, or not? By scientific standards, it should be falsifiable. It is not.

No it isn't. It's actually what happens when someone doesn't understand what the negative proof fallacy entails.

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The problem with the Celestial Teapot (and all arguments based on it) is the assumption that religious belief has no evidence to support it. Therefore something made up is wrongly compared to religious belief. It's an incorrect comparison. What evidence is there that a teapot is orbiting in space? It is clearly made-up.

You need to decide which horse you're backing here. If you want to go the evidence route, that's a naturalistic concept. By all means attempt to show some for "God" if you want to (you'll be the first ever to do so), but you need to accept thereby whose lawn it is that you've parked your tank on - ie, the naturalistic "worldview".

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So what it comes down to is the worldview used to interpret the evidence. What scientific/empirical evidence do I have for the emotion of love or anger? Should I say that these don't exist because they cannot be measured scientifically?

No, you should look for the evidence (of which there's plenty by the way). And when the evidence is insufficient, then all you have is a causal or phenomenological "don't know" rather than a "they don't exist". What you don't have though is a, "they must be supernatural then".

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If one starts with evidence...

More naturalism then eh?

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...,it doesn't always lead to truth.

Actually it does, or at least to a truth: the truth according the available evidence.

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However, truth is always supported by evidence.

Well, the categorisation of something as "probably true" perhaps (something could still be "true" even if no-one know's it's true), but OK...

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Evidence can have a variety of forms, but ultimately it is the worldview used to interpret it that will determine the conclusion. Therefore it is essential that the correct worldview is employed.

And how do propose to decide which "worldview" is the "correct" one exactly?

Try my "ten people before breakfast" thought experiment that you ignored last time. Which of the ten "world views" would you suggest I adopt a priori, and why? 
« Last Edit: September 13, 2016, 05:53:54 PM by bluehillside »
"Don't make me come down there."

God

SwordOfTheSpirit

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Re: Where is god?
« Reply #168 on: September 13, 2016, 06:04:05 PM »
And how do propose to decide which "worldview" is the "correct" one exactly?
One that allows for natural and non-natural causes!
I haven't enough faith to be an atheist.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Where is god?
« Reply #169 on: September 13, 2016, 06:11:21 PM »
Sword,

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One that allows for natural and non-natural causes!

For example...?

(Remember, just relying on naturalistic concepts like evidence and reason and logic and historicity and psychology and etc etc are - according to you - off the table for this purpose.)
"Don't make me come down there."

God

SusanDoris

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Re: Where is god?
« Reply #170 on: September 13, 2016, 06:20:57 PM »
Bluehillside has comprehensively answered your post but I’m hjust going to make one or two comments.
Can you prove that David Cameron is not the President of the United States?
This is a question dealing with a real person and a real country, so it would be fairl easy to show to a level as near as makes no difference that that is the case.
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The problem with the Celestial Teapot (and all arguments based on it) is the assumption that religious belief has no evidence to support it.
It hasn’t … unless you can produce one testable fact. There are mountains of subjective ideas and beliefs which people believe to be proof, but none that stands up to scrutiny.
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What scientific/empirical evidence do I have for the emotion of love or anger?
I subscribed to the New Scientist (audio version) for many years and listened to articles about the experiments that show reactions in the brain associated with certain emotions. Such emotions are not possible without a living brain to supply the chemicals etc needed to produce the reaction or behaviour.






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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Where is god?
« Reply #171 on: September 13, 2016, 06:26:31 PM »
Hi Susan,

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This is a question dealing with a real person and a real country, so it would be fairl easy to show to a level as near as makes no difference that that is the case.

It would, but Sword's question was whether I could "prove" that - which of course I could not. How for example would I eliminate the possibility of waking from a coma only to find that DC was the POTUS?

The mistake though is to think that the absence of such a proof has anything whatever to say to whether DC is the POTUS.
"Don't make me come down there."

God

SusanDoris

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Re: Where is god?
« Reply #172 on: September 13, 2016, 06:40:25 PM »
bluehillside

Thank you for post. I wish we still had one of those *thumbs up* emoticons!

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Gordon

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Re: Where is god?
« Reply #173 on: September 13, 2016, 06:46:49 PM »
Not really.

Can you prove that David Cameron is not the President of the United States?

Can you prove that the River Seine does not run through Central London?

Can you prove that 2+2<>5?

I don't suppose for a second you're making these claims - but if you were then by this challenge you'd be committing the NPF (and gloriously so).


Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Where is god?
« Reply #174 on: September 13, 2016, 06:53:42 PM »
Bluehillside has comprehensively answered your post
He has comprehensively answered a post?

I'm off to get the Bunting up.