Author Topic: The Waterside Ape  (Read 9459 times)

Dicky Underpants

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Re: The Waterside Ape
« Reply #25 on: September 15, 2016, 06:12:57 PM »
However the idea that Morgan puts forward. for instance, in her book, the Scars of Evolution, is that between 6 to 7 My and 3.5My ago, the primates ancestral to man went through a semi aquatic or wholly aquatic stage, for long enough to leave vestigial clues, possibly because they were trapped on an island. Now, it is possible that a small, isolated population under stress can lead to significant evolutionary adaptation, but it does seem unlikely. Of course, there are examples of species moving from sea to land, and then back to sea(e.g.ceteceans and sirenians), but these have not been in the remarkably short time suggested by the AAH.

Hello enki

For me, one of the more astonishing claims of the programme came from a few supporters of the theory who were prepared to suggest that the aquatic ape period was much more recent than the 5-7 million to 3.5 million b.p. period that Hardy and Elaine Morgan had suggested. One hypothesised its occurring during the time of Homo Erectus (1 million years ago?), and another during the early years of the establishment of our own species, Homo Sapiens - maybe 100,000 years ago at most. I would certainly think that such recent estimates must be precluded by any reputable evolutionary theory. Nonetheless, aren't we still very much in the dark about the rates of evolutionary change? Isolation of an animal group has been suggested as a principal cause of speciation, but I believe Darwin himself (despite his Galapagos observations) was reluctant to claim this as the only cause of dynamic evolutionary change. (In this respect, I think E.M's idea of hominids isolated on an island is speculative in the extreme.)

Enter Stephen J. Gould, and his Punctuated Equilibrium. He was prepared to accept that from his observations of the fossil record that stasis over vast aeons is a pretty common phenomenon, but interspersed with periods of very rapid evolutionary change. I have to admit that I don't have the in-depth knowledge or indeed full understanding of what Gould was arguing to be able to suggest why such rapid evolutionary change might occur under certain conditions, but I think he might have thought that 3.5 million years was enough to effect a few bodily modifications in a hominid. We're not talking about a creature becoming fully aquatic here (as in the case of the cetaceans that you cite) - simply spending a lot of time in the water in search of the most readily available food supply.

The question of food supply is of course the clincher to several aspects of the argument. Was it not posited that lypids * found in abundance in aquatic animal tissue, but not so abundant in terrestrial animals, was an essential element in the preservation of healthy human organisms? And that these substances for long periods of the year were extremely meagre in animal prey, but always in high amounts in marine life? Those that had the healthier marine diet would certainly be the 'fittest' to survive. It was also argued that these substances were essential for the massive growth of the human brain, and that those creatures deprived of such essential ingredients never develop large brains. Thus, the propensity to develop larger brains would be intrinsically dependent on consistent supplies of the chemicals in question over possibly a few million years. And that would certainly give the hominids involved an evolutionary advantage.

*Not sure if these were the substances mentioned. I'm not a biochemist :)
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Dicky Underpants

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Re: The Waterside Ape
« Reply #26 on: September 15, 2016, 06:20:52 PM »
Hi Gonnagle,

What we eat day to day has probably got nothing to do with hominid/hominin evolution. The vast majority of our current diets just did not exist or were not easily available 20000 years ago let alone over 2 million years ago.

Udayana

The programme specifically argued that what ancient hominids ate had a very great deal to do with their evolution! This was of course over a very long period of time, but it was emphasised that the compounds found in a diet based on aquatic plants and animals may have indeed caused the hominid brain to increase in size and capacity.
What we eat today, of course, whether we are omnivores or vegetarians is unlikely have much effect - for better or worse -  than our ancestors. Those of us in the developed world have a huge range of nutritious food to choose from to help keep all our bodily and mental functions thriving. With our remote ancestors it was not so - they ate what they could get, and what they could get most easily, if they were in the right locations, was aquatic, especially marine animals and plants.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2016, 06:24:54 PM by Dicky Underpants »
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Udayana

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Re: The Waterside Ape
« Reply #27 on: September 15, 2016, 07:31:39 PM »
Dicky, I quite agree.

The availability or not of sources of fatty acids and lipids most probably did affect the lives and evolution of our distant ancestors, but this does not really mean that we are best eating what they ate, even if we were able to.

The diets we choose affect our survival and reproduction rates and thus, along with some epigentic effects, does affect future evolution of our species.
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Jack Knave

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Re: The Waterside Ape
« Reply #28 on: September 15, 2016, 07:38:13 PM »
Hi Gonnagle,

What we eat day to day has probably got nothing to do with hominid/hominin evolution. The vast majority of our current diets just did not exist or were not easily available 20000 years ago let alone over 2 million years ago. I myself, as a vegetarian, don't eat meat or fish, have only eaten fish once - entirely by accident! - and my brain is perfectly fine! Though, on the other hand, for all I know you are the last Glaswegian hunter gatherer and live on wild berries, hunting wild animals, scavenging and fishing! - but it doesn't mean that you will be any cleverer than someone eating a normal healthy diet :(

I do love swimming though and miss it terribly if I haven't been able to get to a pool for a couple days.

Evolution is interesting, but nearly every point can be argued over. It's the detail that makes it interesting. The points made by Jim Moore (in Enki's link)  will no doubt still be argued over decades from now, with each side carefully picking out the facts that conform their biases. All I'd like is that everyone keeps an open mind, not just writing off one school or idea out of prejudice or arrogance - but also to notice when those other factors are affecting their investigations and conclusions.
Vegetarian? You don't look too healthy in your photo!

Was your mother a veggie? Because most of the brain growth occurs before we are born I believe.

Jack Knave

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Re: The Waterside Ape
« Reply #29 on: September 15, 2016, 08:11:31 PM »
Hello enki

For me, one of the more astonishing claims of the programme came from a few supporters of the theory who were prepared to suggest that the aquatic ape period was much more recent than the 5-7 million to 3.5 million b.p. period that Hardy and Elaine Morgan had suggested. One hypothesised its occurring during the time of Homo Erectus (1 million years ago?), and another during the early years of the establishment of our own species, Homo Sapiens - maybe 100,000 years ago at most. I would certainly think that such recent estimates must be precluded by any reputable evolutionary theory. Nonetheless, aren't we still very much in the dark about the rates of evolutionary change? Isolation of an animal group has been suggested as a principal cause of speciation, but I believe Darwin himself (despite his Galapagos observations) was reluctant to claim this as the only cause of dynamic evolutionary change. (In this respect, I think E.M's idea of hominids isolated on an island is speculative in the extreme.)

Enter Stephen J. Gould, and his Punctuated Equilibrium. He was prepared to accept that from his observations of the fossil record that stasis over vast aeons is a pretty common phenomenon, but interspersed with periods of very rapid evolutionary change. I have to admit that I don't have the in-depth knowledge or indeed full understanding of what Gould was arguing to be able to suggest why such rapid evolutionary change might occur under certain conditions, but I think he might have thought that 3.5 million years was enough to effect a few bodily modifications in a hominid. We're not talking about a creature becoming fully aquatic here (as in the case of the cetaceans that you cite) - simply spending a lot of time in the water in search of the most readily available food supply.

The question of food supply is of course the clincher to several aspects of the argument. Was it not posited that lypids * found in abundance in aquatic animal tissue, but not so abundant in terrestrial animals, was an essential element in the preservation of healthy human organisms? And that these substances for long periods of the year were extremely meagre in animal prey, but always in high amounts in marine life? Those that had the healthier marine diet would certainly be the 'fittest' to survive. It was also argued that these substances were essential for the massive growth of the human brain, and that those creatures deprived of such essential ingredients never develop large brains. Thus, the propensity to develop larger brains would be intrinsically dependent on consistent supplies of the chemicals in question over possibly a few million years. And that would certainly give the hominids involved an evolutionary advantage.

*Not sure if these were the substances mentioned. I'm not a biochemist :)
If the lose of hair is part the equation of the argument then the waterside process would have had to have started around 5 million year ago which is when it is taken that we started to lose our hair.

Gould's Punctuated Equilibrium is based on a substantial change in the environment which makes other adaptions more viable, adaptions which would have been lost otherwise. We diverged from our common ape ancestor with the other modern apes about 6-7 million years ago. This would imply that some kind of environmental change occurred then and which no doubt pushed some of those ancestral apes to find other food sources(?). It would be nice if a TV programme was done on this relating the climate changes that went on over these millions of years and the evolutional change of our species.

It should be noted, from what I can tell that we were not fully upright until probably Homo erectus (hence name) if not later (does anyone know this?). Which would imply to me that it was being on the savannah that finally gave the final push to this fully erect status as we chased prey around and developed amble buttocks.

I have to say I find this diet argument slightly dubious but for no real scientific reason.

Udayana

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Re: The Waterside Ape
« Reply #30 on: September 16, 2016, 11:40:08 AM »
Vegetarian? You don't look too healthy in your photo!

Was your mother a veggie? Because most of the brain growth occurs before we are born I believe.

My brain is fine but the rest is built of electrical and electronic trash :)

The WEEE Man

My parents, grandparents and presumably ancestors back for many generations, (back to Eden?) were vegetarian. I started a thread a while back on a study on genetic changes associated with vegetarianism - in genes that affect processing of essential fats such as omega 3 and 6.

Vegetarian genes
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Udayana

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Re: The Waterside Ape
« Reply #31 on: September 16, 2016, 11:46:51 AM »
If the lose of hair is part the equation of the argument then the waterside process would have had to have started around 5 million year ago which is when it is taken that we started to lose our hair.

Gould's Punctuated Equilibrium is based on a substantial change in the environment which makes other adaptions more viable, adaptions which would have been lost otherwise. We diverged from our common ape ancestor with the other modern apes about 6-7 million years ago. This would imply that some kind of environmental change occurred then and which no doubt pushed some of those ancestral apes to find other food sources(?). It would be nice if a TV programme was done on this relating the climate changes that went on over these millions of years and the evolutional change of our species.

It should be noted, from what I can tell that we were not fully upright until probably Homo erectus (hence name) if not later (does anyone know this?). Which would imply to me that it was being on the savannah that finally gave the final push to this fully erect status as we chased prey around and developed amble buttocks.

I have to say I find this diet argument slightly dubious but for no real scientific reason.

The huge differences in dating any aquatic stage show how far off any solid theory is. Investigation has to be related to knowledge of environmental effects of historical climate change in Africa. I'd speculate that we have been in and out of the water a number of times.
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Enki

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Re: The Waterside Ape
« Reply #32 on: September 16, 2016, 01:25:28 PM »
Hello enki

For me, one of the more astonishing claims of the programme came from a few supporters of the theory who were prepared to suggest that the aquatic ape period was much more recent than the 5-7 million to 3.5 million b.p. period that Hardy and Elaine Morgan had suggested. One hypothesised its occurring during the time of Homo Erectus (1 million years ago?), and another during the early years of the establishment of our own species, Homo Sapiens - maybe 100,000 years ago at most. I would certainly think that such recent estimates must be precluded by any reputable evolutionary theory. Nonetheless, aren't we still very much in the dark about the rates of evolutionary change? Isolation of an animal group has been suggested as a principal cause of speciation, but I believe Darwin himself (despite his Galapagos observations) was reluctant to claim this as the only cause of dynamic evolutionary change. (In this respect, I think E.M's idea of hominids isolated on an island is speculative in the extreme.)

Enter Stephen J. Gould, and his Punctuated Equilibrium. He was prepared to accept that from his observations of the fossil record that stasis over vast aeons is a pretty common phenomenon, but interspersed with periods of very rapid evolutionary change. I have to admit that I don't have the in-depth knowledge or indeed full understanding of what Gould was arguing to be able to suggest why such rapid evolutionary change might occur under certain conditions, but I think he might have thought that 3.5 million years was enough to effect a few bodily modifications in a hominid. We're not talking about a creature becoming fully aquatic here (as in the case of the cetaceans that you cite) - simply spending a lot of time in the water in search of the most readily available food supply.

The question of food supply is of course the clincher to several aspects of the argument. Was it not posited that lypids * found in abundance in aquatic animal tissue, but not so abundant in terrestrial animals, was an essential element in the preservation of healthy human organisms? And that these substances for long periods of the year were extremely meagre in animal prey, but always in high amounts in marine life? Those that had the healthier marine diet would certainly be the 'fittest' to survive. It was also argued that these substances were essential for the massive growth of the human brain, and that those creatures deprived of such essential ingredients never develop large brains. Thus, the propensity to develop larger brains would be intrinsically dependent on consistent supplies of the chemicals in question over possibly a few million years. And that would certainly give the hominids involved an evolutionary advantage.

*Not sure if these were the substances mentioned. I'm not a biochemist :)

Hi Dicky,

Morgan regards the crucial gap between Ramapithecus at 9My and Australopthecus at 3.7 My(Morgan 'The Aquatic Ape Hypothesis') and refines the precise period between 8 and 6 My. Of course ramapithecus is now regarded as being part of the orangutan group and is not a viable ancestor for the hominid line. It is interesting that in her earlier book, she considers that there were 'ten or twelve million years in the water'(Morgan 'The Descent of Woman')

Stephen Gould's (and others) hypothesis of punctuated equilibrium mainly deals with the idea of  the problems related to stasis and the sudden appearance and disappearance of species, as we see it in the fossil record. It is proposed that it is usually the result of rare and geologically rapid events, allowing new morphologies to form quickly.

I'm not sure that this helps explain the AAH though. Surely Ockham's Razor suggests that with a terrestrial antecedent and a terrestrial descendent shortly(geologically) thereafter, the evolutionary trajectory would be through terrestrial intermediates. As regards the coastal theory of the aquatic/semi aquatic ape, it is surely true that hominids have occupied a successful niche in mosaic/savannah habitats, even with the suggested aquatic changes of, for instance, bipedality, the descended larynx, sweating(involving salt and water loss) and subcutaneous fat. So, why did these proto-hominids desert such a rich and productive niche for the rigours of the savannah? After all the Miocene cooling  provides the necessary pressure to justify a savannah/mosaic woodland explanation whilst the coastal aquatic scenario would seem a more stable environment, leading to increasingly more well adapted aquatic/semi aquatic hominids better suited to survival, maybe leading to a population explosion. Their subsequent disappearance is surely a problem for those who suggest that coastal waters was where they originated. A tsunami, perhaps?

Your point about the marine food supply and the enlargement of the brain is an interesting one.  This is largely founded on the fact that omega 3 fatty acids are required for brain growth, and that omega 3 is abundant in fish in particular. First of all, Morgan argues that there is no evidence that the savannah requires more intelligence to exploit than the ancestral forest.(Morgan 'Descent of the Child'). Of course she is correct, but fails to consider other factors whichare often cited as leading to larger brains, such as socialization and co-operation. Also, although some cetaceans can be generally considered to have large brains, and good EQs, what about other marine species, especially intellectually challenged fish?

Greater encephalisation, of course, is shown in both homo habilis and homo erectus rather than the australopithecines, and these are clearly associated with a terrestrial environment as witnessed by stone tools and bones.

As regards the omega 3 fatty acids, we don't really need loads of it as(apart from infants) we can synthesize it from vegetable oils and meat sources, as well as the seashore. Indeed, if you move back say two hundred years(or before dietary supplements and mass food availability) plenty of people with normal brains existed on diets which didn't have marine elements. Also the idea that rich sources of omega 3 would, in some way, kickstart larger brains is postively Lamarckian in its intent. Evolution doesn't work that way. If it did, why  haven't fish eating species such as herons, diving ducks, otters, seals developed much larger brains?

Finally, whilst scanning Ch 9 of Gould's 'The Structure of Evolutionary Theory'(which was a bit like wading through treacle), I did come across this quote. I hasten to add that he was not talking about the AAH at all, but, for me, this quote is entirely apposite.

He mentioned G.K.Chesterton, who wrote that all art is limitation. He then goes on to say:

Quote
The same principle operates in science, where claiming too much, or too broad a scope of application, often condemns a good idea to mushy indefiniteness and consequent vacuity

I think that the AAH had a kernel of a good idea, I'm not against it, but Morgan tried to encompass too much in her enthusiasm to put it across. It does seem now to have reached a point however, that in a much more watered down form, the idea of the waterside ape can be looked at with new eyes.
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Gonnagle

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Re: The Waterside Ape
« Reply #33 on: September 16, 2016, 01:26:55 PM »
Dear enki,

I have not read all of your link ( it is quite lengthy ).

http://www.aquaticape.org/

but can you tell me if it deals with the fossil evidence that when man first stood up there was no Savannah.

It does deal with a definition of Savannah,

http://www.aquaticape.org/savannah.html

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Enki

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Re: The Waterside Ape
« Reply #34 on: September 16, 2016, 02:02:49 PM »
Dear enki,

I have not read all of your link ( it is quite lengthy ).

http://www.aquaticape.org/

but can you tell me if it deals with the fossil evidence that when man first stood up there was no Savannah.

It does deal with a definition of Savannah,

http://www.aquaticape.org/savannah.html

Gonnagle.

Hi Gonners,

As far as I know, there is some slight evidence that ramidus could have walked upright, but the evidence is tenuous. The first real evidence came from both the discovery of 'Lucy'(australopithacus afarensis and the footprints of 3 afarensis individuals at Laetoli Tanzania. This was almost definitely at a time when the drier climate had produced mosaic woodland rather than dense forest, and also near to large lakes.(I have actually seen mock ups of these footprints at the small museum at the Olduvai Gorge.) Now, of course, the whole area is very dry and barren. Afarensis remains have been found covering an age of between roughly 4 My and 2.5 My. Interestingly the size of the afarensis brain is similar to that of a chimp.
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Gonnagle

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Re: The Waterside Ape
« Reply #35 on: September 16, 2016, 02:36:22 PM »
Dear enki,

Then why does Sir David in the second episode ( 16.30 mins in ) tell us that the Savannah hypothesis is on shaky ground, and I quote,
Quote
the inescapable fossil evidence that Savannah's as we know them today were simply not around when man first stood up
.

He then goes on to tell us about a scientist, Philip Tobias ( three times Nobel prize nominated ) who says that the Savannah hypothesis should be thrown out of the window.

I am really taken by this aquatic ape theory, it all sounds quite sensible, not that I think we should throw out the Savannah hypothesis just that it can sit quite nicely beside it, man the hunter and fisherman ;)

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Enki

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Re: The Waterside Ape
« Reply #36 on: September 16, 2016, 03:19:11 PM »
Dear enki,

Then why does Sir David in the second episode ( 16.30 mins in ) tell us that the Savannah hypothesis is on shaky ground, and I quote, .

He then goes on to tell us about a scientist, Philip Tobias ( three times Nobel prize nominated ) who says that the Savannah hypothesis should be thrown out of the window.

I am really taken by this aquatic ape theory, it all sounds quite sensible, not that I think we should throw out the Savannah hypothesis just that it can sit quite nicely beside it, man the hunter and fisherman ;)

Gonnagle.

Gonners,

Perhaps because the original Savannah hypothesis has been considerably modified in the last 20 years or so. It was originally promulgated by Raymond Dart after discovering the taung skull in 1925. But time and discoveries have moved on. The generally accepted interpretation now is of a mosaic woodland, which would give good tree cover, but which may well have involved travelling on the ground between woodland areas. These areas, over time, became drier and drier. David Attenborough was quite right in suggesting that the savannah habitat wasn't around when man first stood up. The clue is in the words "as we know them today". The original habitat may well have included flooded areas, swampy areas, lakes etc. and the idea that bipedalism came about through wading in low water must take its place with the many other suggestions.
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Jack Knave

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Re: The Waterside Ape
« Reply #37 on: September 16, 2016, 06:52:01 PM »
Hi Dicky,

Morgan regards the crucial gap between Ramapithecus at 9My and Australopthecus at 3.7 My(Morgan 'The Aquatic Ape Hypothesis') and refines the precise period between 8 and 6 My. Of course ramapithecus is now regarded as being part of the orangutan group and is not a viable ancestor for the hominid line. It is interesting that in her earlier book, she considers that there were 'ten or twelve million years in the water'(Morgan 'The Descent of Woman')

Stephen Gould's (and others) hypothesis of punctuated equilibrium mainly deals with the idea of  the problems related to stasis and the sudden appearance and disappearance of species, as we see it in the fossil record. It is proposed that it is usually the result of rare and geologically rapid events, allowing new morphologies to form quickly.

I'm not sure that this helps explain the AAH though. Surely Ockham's Razor suggests that with a terrestrial antecedent and a terrestrial descendent shortly(geologically) thereafter, the evolutionary trajectory would be through terrestrial intermediates. As regards the coastal theory of the aquatic/semi aquatic ape, it is surely true that hominids have occupied a successful niche in mosaic/savannah habitats, even with the suggested aquatic changes of, for instance, bipedality, the descended larynx, sweating(involving salt and water loss) and subcutaneous fat. So, why did these proto-hominids desert such a rich and productive niche for the rigours of the savannah? After all the Miocene cooling  provides the necessary pressure to justify a savannah/mosaic woodland explanation whilst the coastal aquatic scenario would seem a more stable environment, leading to increasingly more well adapted aquatic/semi aquatic hominids better suited to survival, maybe leading to a population explosion. Their subsequent disappearance is surely a problem for those who suggest that coastal waters was where they originated. A tsunami, perhaps?

Your point about the marine food supply and the enlargement of the brain is an interesting one.  This is largely founded on the fact that omega 3 fatty acids are required for brain growth, and that omega 3 is abundant in fish in particular. First of all, Morgan argues that there is no evidence that the savannah requires more intelligence to exploit than the ancestral forest.(Morgan 'Descent of the Child'). Of course she is correct, but fails to consider other factors whichare often cited as leading to larger brains, such as socialization and co-operation. Also, although some cetaceans can be generally considered to have large brains, and good EQs, what about other marine species, especially intellectually challenged fish?

Greater encephalisation, of course, is shown in both homo habilis and homo erectus rather than the australopithecines, and these are clearly associated with a terrestrial environment as witnessed by stone tools and bones.

As regards the omega 3 fatty acids, we don't really need loads of it as(apart from infants) we can synthesize it from vegetable oils and meat sources, as well as the seashore. Indeed, if you move back say two hundred years(or before dietary supplements and mass food availability) plenty of people with normal brains existed on diets which didn't have marine elements. Also the idea that rich sources of omega 3 would, in some way, kickstart larger brains is postively Lamarckian in its intent. Evolution doesn't work that way. If it did, why  haven't fish eating species such as herons, diving ducks, otters, seals developed much larger brains?

Finally, whilst scanning Ch 9 of Gould's 'The Structure of Evolutionary Theory'(which was a bit like wading through treacle), I did come across this quote. I hasten to add that he was not talking about the AAH at all, but, for me, this quote is entirely apposite.

He mentioned G.K.Chesterton, who wrote that all art is limitation. He then goes on to say:

I think that the AAH had a kernel of a good idea, I'm not against it, but Morgan tried to encompass too much in her enthusiasm to put it across. It does seem now to have reached a point however, that in a much more watered down form, the idea of the waterside ape can be looked at with new eyes.
The problem with this, in our ancestors movements, is what is meant by savannah and what was the climate really like at various stages of our evolution?

If the waterside existence did create a population explosion then perhaps some did move inland because of this.

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Re: The Waterside Ape
« Reply #38 on: September 16, 2016, 07:00:39 PM »
Hi Gonners,

As far as I know, there is some slight evidence that ramidus could have walked upright, but the evidence is tenuous. The first real evidence came from both the discovery of 'Lucy'(australopithacus afarensis and the footprints of 3 afarensis individuals at Laetoli Tanzania. This was almost definitely at a time when the drier climate had produced mosaic woodland rather than dense forest, and also near to large lakes.(I have actually seen mock ups of these footprints at the small museum at the Olduvai Gorge.) Now, of course, the whole area is very dry and barren. Afarensis remains have been found covering an age of between roughly 4 My and 2.5 My. Interestingly the size of the afarensis brain is similar to that of a chimp.
Was 'Lucy' fully upright? I thought not.

Enki

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Re: The Waterside Ape
« Reply #39 on: September 17, 2016, 12:32:04 AM »
Was 'Lucy' fully upright? I thought not.

Hi Jack,

The general consensus is that she was.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucy_(Australopithecus)#Ambulation

http://www.bbc.co.uk/earth/story/20141127-lucy-fossil-revealed-our-origins

http://science.sciencemag.org/content/331/6018/750

Although debate still continues as to how much time she would spend in trees, if at all.
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Enki

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Re: The Waterside Ape
« Reply #40 on: September 17, 2016, 03:13:32 PM »
Sometimes I wish my first word was 'quote,' so that on my death bed, my last words could be 'end quote.'
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Gonnagle

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Re: The Waterside Ape
« Reply #41 on: September 18, 2016, 07:35:43 PM »
Dear enki,

Thanks for the link,

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2016/sep/16/david-attenboroughs-aquatic-ape-series-based-on-wishful-thinking

And all the other links that the original link takes me to.

Just to ask ( and does anyone else agree ) Darwins theory ( Fact ) is undisputed, but our story ( human evolution ) is still to be written, a point in question, our lack of hair, so many theories but no definite answer, another, walking upright.

Please forgive me if I seem to be asking very simple questions, I am but a novice, but I find it very refreshing to discuss this subject without any recourse to Creationist bashing.

Also, doing a bit of research on this topic ( going off at a bit of a tangent ) parents seem to worry about at what stage their child begins to walk, would it be helpful to take your child to the swimming, let them wade in the shallow end, helped by the adult, the buoyancy of the water, just a thought flitting through my Aquatic ape brain. ???

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Re: The Waterside Ape
« Reply #42 on: September 19, 2016, 02:49:41 PM »
Hi Gonners,

On the subject of evolutionary reasons for our near nakedness, compared with most other animals(but the only primate), one idea is that it influences the efficiency of sweating, although it increases the risk of hypothermia. Also, we can't be sure, exactly where it came in, in the evolution of the hominid line. A list of some of the suggestions/hypotheses are present in this paper:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/213774095_Evolution_of_nakedness_in_Homo_sapiens

It is worth looking, at least briefly, at the sub divisions of the above paper, as they show both the advantages and disadvantages of the various proposed hypotheses.

As regards your idea that very young children, regularly taken to a water/swimming environment, aids in learning to walk, as far as I know, the answer is a qualified yes, because in a water environment a greater range of muscles are improved, which encourages walking, rather than crawling, at an earlier age. This, of course, is in addition to the other benefits such as bonding, dispelling the fear of water, improving co-ordination etc.

https://www.waterbabies.co.uk/baby-swimming/benefits-of-learning-early

look at the section entitled 'it builds their strength'.

For me, the evolution of the hominid line, and how homo sapiens sapiens is the last surviving member, is a fascinating one. There are many gaps to be filled, and each new discovery has its own part to play. It is nowhere near complete, as you quite rightly say, but we do have some generally agreed structures

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_human_evolution#Primates
« Last Edit: September 19, 2016, 02:57:17 PM by enki »
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Jack Knave

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Re: The Waterside Ape
« Reply #43 on: September 21, 2016, 09:24:56 PM »
Hi Jack,

The general consensus is that she was.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucy_(Australopithecus)#Ambulation

http://www.bbc.co.uk/earth/story/20141127-lucy-fossil-revealed-our-origins

http://science.sciencemag.org/content/331/6018/750

Although debate still continues as to how much time she would spend in trees, if at all.
Just got round to viewing these links, thank you. The technical stuff of anatomy went right over my head but still plenty to follow with my limited know how on this.

If 'Lucy' wasn't fully upright then she sounds as if she was pretty much there. I didn't know about her lumber curve which is very telling.

So what makes a Homo genus?, as she is a Australopithecine, and yet is walking pretty much upright. I realise the brain size was near that to an apes. Diet and teeth?

Enki

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Re: The Waterside Ape
« Reply #44 on: September 22, 2016, 01:34:06 PM »
Just got round to viewing these links, thank you. The technical stuff of anatomy went right over my head but still plenty to follow with my limited know how on this.

If 'Lucy' wasn't fully upright then she sounds as if she was pretty much there. I didn't know about her lumber curve which is very telling.

So what makes a Homo genus?, as she is a Australopithecine, and yet is walking pretty much upright. I realise the brain size was near that to an apes. Diet and teeth?

Good question, Jack.

This might be a useful article.

http://anthro.palomar.edu/homo/homo_1.htm

However, exact points of when one genus becomes another are often very difficult to decide(if they actually exist, that is), and, especially in paleoanthropology where specimens are hard to come by. In my own interest area of ornithology, there is often considerable debate as to whether a particular bird is a species or subspecies, for instance. It's usually called 'lumping' and 'splitting'.  Birders prefer splitting, of course. :)  E.g. only in recent times have  the carrion crow and the hooded crow being generally accepted as meriting the taxonomic name species, rather than sub species. Similarly with the common chiffchaff and the Iberian chiffchaff.
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Re: The Waterside Ape
« Reply #45 on: September 22, 2016, 08:09:02 PM »
Good question, Jack.

This might be a useful article.

http://anthro.palomar.edu/homo/homo_1.htm

However, exact points of when one genus becomes another are often very difficult to decide(if they actually exist, that is), and, especially in paleoanthropology where specimens are hard to come by. In my own interest area of ornithology, there is often considerable debate as to whether a particular bird is a species or subspecies, for instance. It's usually called 'lumping' and 'splitting'.  Birders prefer splitting, of course. :)  E.g. only in recent times have  the carrion crow and the hooded crow being generally accepted as meriting the taxonomic name species, rather than sub species. Similarly with the common chiffchaff and the Iberian chiffchaff.
Reading through the link it states that Homo habilis was the first of the hominins that acquired brains that were detectably or significantly larger than apes. If the waterside theory is correct then these should be found near watery locations at the time. It also states that when habilis came on the scene 2.5 mya the climate was influx in Africa which was predominately a dry and cooling period. This could have meant that all species moved towards and hung around water locations (and possibly small prey and plants became scarce), and that, presumably, habilis found a way to go fishing.

But from my old notes we lost our hair by at least 3.5 mya, and possibly started to lose it from around 5 mya. If the waterside theory is using this loss of hair as part of our ability to swim, and have a streamlined body, then something doesn't fit for our fish diet should, by their reckoning, have increased our brains prior to habilis.

The link at the end mentions gene mutations and this is where I find the diet idea iffy. If there are not the genes to create large brains and the cranium to house it then no amount of fish is going to change things much. Just musing through the possible logic of it.

Do you know or understand the reference in the radio programme (I may have missed heard) that our nose size and shape have something to do with the waterside theory because its size is disproportionate to our ability to detect and be sensitive to odours?

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Re: The Waterside Ape
« Reply #46 on: September 23, 2016, 05:28:39 PM »
As a bit of oblique information there was a Miocene ape, Oreopithecus bambolii that lived around 9 - 7 mya, that was bipedal but structurally different from hominins. It was found in Sardinia and circumstances  would seem to indicate it having no links whatsoever with our ancestors, and as such would be a case of independent adaption.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oreopithecus

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Re: The Waterside Ape
« Reply #47 on: September 23, 2016, 05:34:22 PM »
As a bit of oblique information there was a Miocene ape, Oreopithecus bambolii that lived around 9 - 7 mya, that was bipedal but structurally different from hominins. It was found in Sardinia and circumstances  would seem to indicate it having no links whatsoever with our ancestors, and as such would be a case of independent adaption.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oreopithecus
oblique, but interesting, thank you

Enki

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Re: The Waterside Ape
« Reply #48 on: September 23, 2016, 10:51:42 PM »
Reading through the link it states that Homo habilis was the first of the hominins that acquired brains that were detectably or significantly larger than apes. If the waterside theory is correct then these should be found near watery locations at the time. It also states that when habilis came on the scene 2.5 mya the climate was influx in Africa which was predominately a dry and cooling period. This could have meant that all species moved towards and hung around water locations (and possibly small prey and plants became scarce), and that, presumably, habilis found a way to go fishing.

But from my old notes we lost our hair by at least 3.5 mya, and possibly started to lose it from around 5 mya. If the waterside theory is using this loss of hair as part of our ability to swim, and have a streamlined body, then something doesn't fit for our fish diet should, by their reckoning, have increased our brains prior to habilis.

The link at the end mentions gene mutations and this is where I find the diet idea iffy. If there are not the genes to create large brains and the cranium to house it then no amount of fish is going to change things much. Just musing through the possible logic of it.

Do you know or understand the reference in the radio programme (I may have missed heard) that our nose size and shape have something to do with the waterside theory because its size is disproportionate to our ability to detect and be sensitive to odours?

Hi Jack,

I'll just concentrate on your last paragraph, if that's okay.

Smell:

Morgan talks about our olfactory lobes being small and relates this to similar diminution in aquatic mammals(with a total loss in cetaceans)(Morgan 'The Aquatic Ape'). She is quite correct. However what about the other primates,which, as an order, are associated with reduced olfaction, with apes and monkeys having a smaller olfactory system than lemurs and lorises(Jones 'Cambridge Encylcopedia of Human Evolution'). She fails to mention that, for instance,  a move away from a largely vegetarian diet to scavenging could provide further pressure to reduce a sense of smell.

Nasal Closure:

A really important requirement for adapting to an aquatic lifestyle would be the ability to close the nostrils. Homo sapiens cannot do this.

Verhaegen suggested that the erectile tissue of the inferior nasal concha(a scroll like bone in the nasal cavity) might fulfill this function to some extent(nasal obstruction can occur with rapid humidity or temperature change) and suggests that it has a linkage with the diving rhythm of Korean  and Japanese divers.(verhaegen 'The Aquatic Ape Theory). This seems to me a little like cherry picking to me.

Morgan also has a tentative suggestion that by everting the top lip, and pressing it against the nose, the nostrils could be closed.  She also suggests that our ability not to be able to do this now is down to no natural selection pressure  encouraging this trait to continue. I suggest that this tentative speculation is indeed just that.

Nose size and shape:

Morgan sees the human nose to be 'one of humanity's most baffling hallmarks'(Morgan 'The Aquatic Ape'), but other primates such as baboons and mandrills have developed unusual nose structures too. How does one explain the proboscis monkey? Morgan expresses the idea that the bridge of the nose is useful in  deflecting water when diving, but it seems highly unusual  that evolution has produced  such an evolved appendage as the nose, and yet not so well adapted as to provide nasal closure  when being immersed in water. Some ideas for our nose structure and shape are contained in this article:

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2082274-the-evolution-of-the-nose-why-is-the-human-hooter-so-big/

Incidentally thanks for the info in your mess. 46. Had a quick check on this.  I definitely find it interesting.
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Re: The Waterside Ape
« Reply #49 on: September 27, 2016, 08:57:09 PM »
Hi Jack,

I'll just concentrate on your last paragraph, if that's okay.

Smell:

Morgan talks about our olfactory lobes being small and relates this to similar diminution in aquatic mammals(with a total loss in cetaceans)(Morgan 'The Aquatic Ape'). She is quite correct. However what about the other primates,which, as an order, are associated with reduced olfaction, with apes and monkeys having a smaller olfactory system than lemurs and lorises(Jones 'Cambridge Encylcopedia of Human Evolution'). She fails to mention that, for instance,  a move away from a largely vegetarian diet to scavenging could provide further pressure to reduce a sense of smell.

Nasal Closure:

A really important requirement for adapting to an aquatic lifestyle would be the ability to close the nostrils. Homo sapiens cannot do this.

Verhaegen suggested that the erectile tissue of the inferior nasal concha(a scroll like bone in the nasal cavity) might fulfill this function to some extent(nasal obstruction can occur with rapid humidity or temperature change) and suggests that it has a linkage with the diving rhythm of Korean  and Japanese divers.(verhaegen 'The Aquatic Ape Theory). This seems to me a little like cherry picking to me.

Morgan also has a tentative suggestion that by everting the top lip, and pressing it against the nose, the nostrils could be closed.  She also suggests that our ability not to be able to do this now is down to no natural selection pressure  encouraging this trait to continue. I suggest that this tentative speculation is indeed just that.

Nose size and shape:

Morgan sees the human nose to be 'one of humanity's most baffling hallmarks'(Morgan 'The Aquatic Ape'), but other primates such as baboons and mandrills have developed unusual nose structures too. How does one explain the proboscis monkey? Morgan expresses the idea that the bridge of the nose is useful in  deflecting water when diving, but it seems highly unusual  that evolution has produced  such an evolved appendage as the nose, and yet not so well adapted as to provide nasal closure  when being immersed in water. Some ideas for our nose structure and shape are contained in this article:

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2082274-the-evolution-of-the-nose-why-is-the-human-hooter-so-big/

Incidentally thanks for the info in your mess. 46. Had a quick check on this.  I definitely find it interesting.
Thank you for that. It seems that as our faces 'drew back' our noses had nowhere to go so stayed where they were protruding out. Been staring at peoples' noses and wondering about this process, and got some funny looks back!

This thread has been great as I haven't read anything on our ancestors for some time and totally forgot about the aquatic ape. Thanks.